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It is funny that many "christians" believe god invented marriage when in fact it is a practice invented by humanity itself which has been practised all over the world by most ancient cultures and, same-sex unions were practised too.
Religion came much later to appropriate this practice and give it a religious conception, but in origin marriage is not religious nor has it been between a man and a woman exclusively.
By the way, the wedding rings is a pagan tradition. :P
But homosexuals have crossed that line. They have infringed on the freedom of Christian businesses. There appears an agenda to engrain homosexuality into every facet of society, every organization, Christian or secular.
It already is in those places. Homosexuals punctuate our society. They are your teachers, your butchers, your lawyers and sometimes even your priests. They are everywhere. It is you attempting to bury your head in the sand on this fact, no one else.
And as I said before, I am in full agreement with you when it comes to PRIVATE business. The law should not, in my view of an ideal world, be compelling anyone to serve their business to anyone. If you start a PRIVATE business then it is wholly up to you who you sell to, to my mind. If you want to discriminate based on a phobia of homosexuals, blacks, the handicapped, or anything else then in my mind you should be allowed to do so.
Just as I should be allowed to laugh gleefully when the business of such bigots breaks down and they are left homeless and destitute, because people displayed their disgust at such a cohort by voting with their feet and shopping elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
So that's how it affects me. I believe same sex marriage is an abomination. I don't want to see it
Well bully for you. Because while I defend on the front line your right not to be forced to perform marriage ceremonies in your club houses (churches) you have no argument at all for standing up against the PUBLIC and SOCIAL insitute of marriage allowing homosexual unions.
What goes on in your club house is your own business and I leave you to it. But when you leave that club house attempting to mirror your internal rules in external society then you have a battle, and so far you have brought no weapons to that battle in the form of cogent arguments as to why homosexuals should not have equal and identical access to the institute of marriage as anyone else.
It is funny that many "christians" believe god invented marriage when in fact it is a practice invented by humanity itself which has been practised all over the world by most ancient cultures and, same-sex unions were practised too.
Religion came much later to appropriate this practice and give it a religious conception, but in origin marriage is not religious nor has it been between a man and a woman exclusively.
By the way, the wedding rings is a pagan tradition. :P
As Christians, we don't claim that Jesus incarnated into a world that had everything
wrong. There are certain timeless truths by which God spoke to mankind in various
places and cultures.
As Christians, we don't claim that Jesus incarnated into a world that had everything
wrong. There are certain timeless truths by which God spoke to mankind in various
places and cultures.
And Jesus brought certain teachings into the world that conflicted with everything that Jews and others had been teaching.
So in EVERYTHING, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets [Matt. 7:12]. There is your OT law summed up. Period. By Jesus, not Paul.
Homosexual people have existed from the very beginning of humanity. Religion is not as old as humanity is so it makes no sense to treat a group of people almost as never existent or as if they are suddenly "invading" the world when in fact it is religion the one that has invading the world imposing it's premises on people, even if they don't agree with those premises.
Remember, it is patriarchy and consequently judeo-christian religions the ones that vilified and made up negative stories about homosexual people.
A single act of homosexuality is considered an abomination in God's Word the Bible. Therefore marriage between two homosexuals is off the moral scale as far as abominations go.
Apart from everything else that's wrong with this kind of outlook, this is an astounding non sequitur--unless you are arguing that same-sex couples will have sex more often with a marriage license than they would without one. (If straight people are any indication, it's probably the opposite!)
And Jesus brought certain teachings into the world that conflicted with everything that Jews and others had been teaching.
So in EVERYTHING, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets [Matt. 7:12]. There is your OT law summed up. Period. By Jesus, not Paul.
Wrong again!
Christ is not throwing out everything He taught and He and God stands for and giving you license to go and do just as you please just as long as you do some good deeds along the way as you have been suggesting.
Let's get back to the basics if you will.
God is love.
1 John 4:
(8) ...for God is love.
How do we love God?
1 John 5:
(3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
And just what are God's Commandments?
Matthew 22:36-40
(36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38)This is the first and great commandment.
(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And these two basic commandments are magnified by the 10 Commandments:
Exodus 20:1-17
[FIRST]
(1) And God spake all these words, saying,
(2) I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[SECOND]
(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
[THIRD]
(7) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
[FOURTH]
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
[FIFTH]
(12) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
[SIXTH]
(13) Thou shalt not kill.
[SEVENTH]
(14) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
[EIGHTH]
(15) Thou shalt not steal.
[NINTH]
(16) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
[TENTH]
(17) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
These were written on two tables of stone with the very finger of God and were placed inside the ark of God.
These Ten Commandments magnify the two Great Commandments Christ referred to in Matthew 22:
[First Great Commandment]
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." The first 4 of the Ten Commandments express love to God and are a magnification of the this first and great commandment:
[Second Great Commandment] "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The last 6 of the Ten Commandments express love to neighbor and are a magnification of the second great commandment.
Summary:
1st Great Commandment is magnified by Ten Commandments 1 - 4.
2nd Great Commandment is magnified by Ten Commandments 5-10.
Now the Ten Commandments are magnified even further by all the commandments, statutes, judgments found in the Old Testament.
For example since, the subject of this thread is homosexuality let's see this magnification of the 7th of the Ten Commandments using Leviticus 18 which has been referred to on this thread.
[SEVENTH OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS] Exodus 20:
(14) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
When you break the statutes/judgments/ordinances listed in Leviticus 18 that are sexual in nature you are breaking in principle the 7th of the Ten Commandments. These prohibitions against sex-related sins are a magnification of the 7th Commandment. Let's take a look at Leviticus 18:
Lev 18:1-5
(1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
(3) After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
(4) Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
(5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
(By the way, the One speaking here to Moses here is actually Jesus Christ who was the Word who lived forever with God so the charge that Christ never spoke against homosexuality is not accurate since He was the one who thundered out the Ten Commandments and is the one speaking here to Moses.)
So now in Leviticus 18 we are going to see a lot of prohibitions against sexual sins in the remainder of this chapter plus a prohibition against human (child) sacrifice and a prohibition against profaning the name of God.
Lev 18:6-30
(6) None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
(7) The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
(8) The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
(9) The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
(10) The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
(11) The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
(12) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
(13) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
(14) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
(15) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
(16) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
(17) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
(18) Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
(19) Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
(20) Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
(21) And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
(22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
(23) Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
(24) Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
(25) And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
(26) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
(27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
(28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
(29) For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
(30) Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
So, the prohibitions against the sexual sins listed in Leviticus 18 are a magnification of the 7th of the Ten Commandments and Christ even magnified the seventh command further:
Matthew 5:27-28
(27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
(28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
So here Christ not only confirms that you are to keep the 7th Commandment in the letter but you are not even to entertain the thought of adultery in your mind or you have broken the law. Christ magnified that 7th commandment and by extension all the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 are magnified since they come under the 7th Commandment in principle so that if you even lust to commit an act of homosexuality you have broken the law in your heart.
Sir, I hope you can wake up and see that you are blind to God's true way of life and you are leading others into more and more sin by casting off all restraint and going deeper and deeper into sin by condoning this abomination.
I know that I am in the minority on this forum on this point, but I believe that God is reproducing Himself and the Saints that are called out at this time must put on righteousness and forsake all sins and the Bible is the instruction book to eradicate the sin out of our lives and show us how to worship God and walk in all His ways.
Remember, when Christ was quoting from the book of Deuteronomy during His battle with Satan He said:
Matthew 4:4
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
And note that when He spoke these words there was only the Old Testament at that time.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Yes, God is reproducing Himself in the people of God who have received God's Holy Spirit and are being led by God's Holy Spirit and are living by every word of God.
Now, you can love a person and care for a person and do good works to help this person but if you and this person are commiting adultery this is not love at all, this is an abominable sin that will cost you your spiritual life and you will suffer the second death unless you repent.
So, unless your personal relationship with your fellow mankind is within the bounds of God's Holy and Righteous spiritual law you are sinning and the same goes with this sin of homosexuality.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
and one of my favorite verses in the Bible...
Rev 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Sincerely,
tthttf
Last edited by tthttf; 11-28-2014 at 09:28 PM..
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Seeing how God created humanity, I'd disagree with your opinion.
