This is what gay marriage will do to us----this (atheists, bishop, Jewish)

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Oh, religion must only be practiced in a church, but every other belief can be practiced anywhere??????

How do you define discrimination???

Of course you took that out of context and then you turned it into a personal attack against yourself. Typical play out of the Christian game book.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by janelle144

I'm referring to the baker, the photographer and the Bed & Breakfast.

Wasn't there a candlestick maker in that story as well?

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by Ceist

Wasn't there a candlestick maker in that story as well?

of course there was, he was one of the three men in a tub, how gay is that? LOL

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

The good thing about all of this, is that this has opened so many eyes to the ugliness of the so-called "Christian". Christianity has never been more in need of a PR makeover.

I feel for all the kind, loving Christians having to be lumped in with the over-bearing zealots that seem to yell the loudest. It's a shame. I wasn't brought up religious but was always taught that Christianity was a religion of kindness to one another, of charity and of forgiveness. Threads like this really illustrate just how wrong I was, at least about the vocal majority.

Christians are not all like that:

The Not All Like That Christians Project

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Since you constantly like to compare the plights of gays to black people, please show me examples of where we have had gays only water fountains, separate bathrooms for gays, separate eating areas in restaurants. Also, gays being denied access to schools and public facilities. After all, it is the EXACT same struggle according to you. Being denied a wedding cake is hardly comparable to what black people endured.

Apart from the death penalty, life imprisonment, public floggings and facial disfigurement for homosexuals in the early days of America? Or the bashings, lynchings, murder, rape, police raids and brutal assaults, imprisonment, public humiliation, government sanctioned discrimination in employment, housing and the military, being categorized as being mentally ill, never being able to live their lives openly, societal vilification, especially religious vilification and virulent anti-gay propaganda and lobbying in recent times?

Add in the legal castration, lobotomies, electroshock convulsive therapy and imprisonment of gay and lesbian people in the 1950's...



Here's just one example of how gay and lesbian people were treated in the past:

LGBT History: The Decade of Lobotomies, Castration and Institutions

Homosexual Dachau? This name doesn't have anything to do with World War II. More than any other mental institution in the United States, Atascadero State Hospital was a chamber of horrors for homosexuals. The tag "Homosexual Dachau" was well-earned for its forced lobotomies, castrations and brutal treatments practiced at that facility. Hundreds of gays and lesbians were forcibly sent by their families to be cured of homosexuality which, as recently as the early 1970s, was considered a sexual and psychological disorder.

The 1950's were an especially dark time for homosexuals. Because of the witch hunts by Senator Joseph McCarthy, Americans started passing horrible and oppressive laws against homosexuality. Same-sex behavior was linked to treason and Communism in that period. As the witch hunt spread across America, homosexuals with no politics were sent to the worst institutions imaginable.

The most notorious was a Dr. Walter J. Freeman who perfected the ice pick lobotomy. He jammed an ice pick through a homosexual's eyes into the brain and performed a primitive lobotomy. He believed deeply this was the only way to cure homosexuality.

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Since you constantly like to compare the plights of gays to black people, please show me examples of where we have had gays only water fountains, separate bathrooms for gays, separate eating areas in restaurants. Also, gays being denied access to schools and public facilities. After all, it is the EXACT same struggle according to you. Being denied a wedding cake is hardly comparable to what black people endured.

I would show videos as well, but they are too graphic for your tender mind that refuses to believe this takes place.

On Monday, Family Research Council Action sent a volatile email encouraging opposition to the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA), which would create nationwide protections for LGBT workers. It echoed many of the claims on the group’s “Fight ENDA” page, including an outright claim that homosexual attraction isn’t biological, so the gay community doesn’t deserve civil rights. Tony Perkins’s daily email from FRC proceeded to once again bemoan last week’s Supreme Court rulings in favor of marriage equality, but similarly highlighted 15 examples of discrimination against gay people the group hopes to protect.


Here’s a closer look at the kinds of discrimination FRC and other conservatives believe embodies “religious liberty:”

Sweet Cakes by Melissa (2013): Sweet Cakes is an Oregon bakery that refused a wedding cake to a same-sex couple. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal under Oregon law.

Just Cookies (2010): Just Cookies were not so just when they refused an order of rainbow cookies for an LGBT student group at Indiana University Purdue University-Indianapolis. Despite claims that they couldn’t fulfill the order, the owner admitted he didn’t think it was best for his “two young, impressionable daughters,” and they eventually settled a complaint with the city of Indianapolis for violating its anti-discrimination ordinance.

Masterpiece Cakes (2012): Masterpiece Cakes in Lakewood, Colorado refused wedding cakes to multiple same-sex couples, though follow-up test calls revealed it would accommodate a cake for a dog wedding. The state attorney general has filed a complaint against the shop for violating the state’s nondiscrimination laws.

Victoria’s Cake Cottage (2011): Baker Victoria Childress of Des Moines, Iowa told a same-sex couple she couldn’t provide them with a wedding cake because of her “convictions for their lifestyle.” It doesn’t seem any legal action was ever taken, but discrimination based on sexual orientation is a violation of Iowa law.

Fleur Cakes (2013): Fleur Cakes is the second Oregon bakery to refuse service to a same-sex couple this year in violation of the law. The owner of Fleur Cakes, like those of Sweet Cakes, would gladly provide cakes for all kinds of other sins, just not same-sex marriages.

Elane Photography (2006): The infamous case of Elane Photography is a staple conservative argument for “religious liberty.” A same-sex couple sued when photographer Elane Hugenin refused to document their commitment ceremony because of her Christian beliefs. She has fought the complaint with support from the Alliance Defending Freedom, but has so far lost at multiple levels of New Mexico court for violating the state’s nondiscrimination law.

Aloha Bed and Breakfast (2011): The Aloha Bed and Breakfast in Hawai’i refused to rent a room to a lesbian couple because the owner believed same-sex relationships “defile the land.” The couple sued, and this April a state judge ruled against the B&B for violating the state’s LGBT nondiscrimination protections.

Arlene’s Flowers (2013): Washington florist Barronelle Stutzman refused to provide the flowers for the wedding of a same-sex couple who had long frequented her shop because of her “relationship with Jesus Christ.” She now faces two lawsuits: one from the couple, and one from the state attorney general for violating state law.

Liberty Ridge Farm (2012): Last September, the New York-based Liberty Ridge Farm refused to let a lesbian couple rent the venue for their wedding because it goes against their religious views. The couple filed a complaint, and conservatives were quick to defend the venue as some small operation — a literal family “farm” — but blogger Jeremy Hooper has pointed out that the business sells wedding packages for several thousand dollars and even runs a wedding blog to tout its offerings.

All Occasion Party Place (2013): The All Occasion Party Place near Fort Worth, Texas refused to rent its venue to a gay couple for a wedding reception “because of God.” Because it’s located outside the city limits, it is not covered by the city’s nondiscrimination protections, and Texas state laws do not protect sexual orientation.

Wildflower Inn (2011): Due to “personal feelings,” the Wildflower Inn in Vermont refused to let a lesbian couple hold their wedding reception there. The couple filed a complaint, which they won last August when the Inn settled, admitting they violated the state’s nondiscrimination laws. Its owners paid a $10,000 civil penalty and established a $20,000 charitable for the couple, which they intend to use to support The Trevor Project.

Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association (2007): The Ocean Grove pavilion in New Jersey is a case conservatives cite quite regularly along with Elane Photography, but the story they tell doesn’t hold up. The church group refused to let a same-sex couple hold a civil union at its boardwalk pavilion, and when the couple filed a complaint, a judge ruled in their favor and the pavilion ultimately lost its tax exemption. The key detail conservatives leave out is that its tax exemption was not based on its religious affiliation, but on a Green Acres real-estate tax exemption for conservation and recreation purposes. The New Jersey Civil Rights Division upheld the judge’s decision in the case, and since losing, the pavilion has re-obtained tax-exempt status through the group’s religious identity.

Hands On Originals (2012): Hands On Originals, a printing company in Lexington, Kentucky, refused to produce t-shirts for the city’s Pride festival because “we’re a Christian organization.” The Gay and Lesbian Services Organization filed a complaint, and the Lexington Human Rights Commission ultimately ruled against the company for violating the city’s sexual orientation nondiscrimination ordinance.

Dr. Angela McCaskill (2012): Last year, Gallaudet University suspended its chief diversity officer for helping challenge Maryland’s marriage equality law at the ballot. She refused to apologize, seeming to compromise her responsibility to ensure that LGBT employees and students at the university are not subject to discrimination. She suggested she might seek compensation for the suspension, but she has since been reinstated.

Crystal Dixon (2008): Crystal Dixon published an editorial letter in the Toledo Free Press objecting to the idea that “those choosing the homosexual lifestyle are ‘civil rights victims’” because they “violate God’s divine order,” identifying herself in the letter as Associate Vice President for Human Resources at the University of Toledo. The university proceeded to terminate her employment because her views directly contradicted her responsibility to uphold its nondiscrimination statement, which includes sexual orientation. She sued, and last December the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the university had legitimate grounds to fire her. She has appealed to the Supreme Court.

There are several common themes in the 15 examples FRC sites. First, in every case where legal action has been taken, the discriminating entity has lost, and in the cases that are ongoing, the state has sided with the same-sex couples who filed complaints. Secondly, many of these cases have taken place in states that don’t even have marriage equality, proving that the issue is not even related to marriage laws, but to nondiscrimination provisions. Lastly, as the last two examples demonstrate, conservatives believe anti-gay discrimination for discrimination’s sake is perfectly valid, even when it’s an individual’s job specifically not to. Most of these examples address public accommodations, and none of them make a compelling case against either marriage equality nor ENDA’s employment protections.

Conservatives may champion “religious liberty” as their argument against LGBT equality moving forward, but it’s an argument they’re already losing across the country.

15 Examples Of Anti-Gay Discrimination Conservatives Want To Preserve | ThinkProgress

In most of the 15 cases the actions of the "religious" folks violated the city or state's anti-discriminatory laws. The fact is the religious right wants the right to be legal bigots and treat homosexuals in a manner that they would not treat dogs (Masterpiece Cakes-2012).

These are relatively mild cases of discrimination. It doesn't even account for the numerous times homosexual have been beaten or killed, some on the basis of "misunderstanding" the talk of religious zealots.

The victimization of gays and lesbians based upon their sexual orientation includes harassment, vandalism, robbery, assault, rape and murder. The location of these crimes is not restricted to dark streets leading from gay establishments. Violence against gays and lesbians occurs everywhere: in schools, the workplace, public places and in the home. Those who commit these
acts come from all social/economic backgrounds and represent different age groups (National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Safety and Fitness Exchange, Lance Bradley and Kevin Berrill, 1986.)

Although homosexuality in itself is not sufficient to compose a separate culture, it is easily understood why this attitude prevails when considering Herek’s discussion of the roles religion, law and mass media play in subordinating gays and lesbians (Herek, Berrill, 1992). “Regardless of the attackers’ motives, victims almost always are chosen for what they are
rather than who they are. This is why anti-gay hate crimes are a form of terrorism. The attack is against the community as a whole” (Herek, 1991).

Alliance: Factsheets: Violence Against Gays and Lesbians

A so-called Christian can be so proud of how some of his/her supporters respond to their constant anti-gay agenda.

[OzzyRules]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

Again, my church doesn't preach against gays.

So, there are openly gay couples in your church?

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Ceist

Apart from the death penalty, life imprisonment, public floggings and facial disfigurement for homosexuals in the early days of America? Or the bashings, lynchings, murder, rape, police raids and brutal assaults, imprisonment, public humiliation, government sanctioned discrimination in employment, housing and the military, being categorized as being mentally ill, never being able to live their lives openly, societal vilification, especially religious vilification and virulent anti-gay propaganda and lobbying in recent times?

Add in the legal castration, lobotomies, electroshock convulsive therapy and imprisonment of gay and lesbian people in the 1950's...



Here's just one example of how gay and lesbian people were treated in the past:

LGBT History: The Decade of Lobotomies, Castration and Institutions

Homosexual Dachau? This name doesn't have anything to do with World War II. More than any other mental institution in the United States, Atascadero State Hospital was a chamber of horrors for homosexuals. The tag "Homosexual Dachau" was well-earned for its forced lobotomies, castrations and brutal treatments practiced at that facility. Hundreds of gays and lesbians were forcibly sent by their families to be cured of homosexuality which, as recently as the early 1970s, was considered a sexual and psychological disorder.

The 1950's were an especially dark time for homosexuals. Because of the witch hunts by Senator Joseph McCarthy, Americans started passing horrible and oppressive laws against homosexuality. Same-sex behavior was linked to treason and Communism in that period. As the witch hunt spread across America, homosexuals with no politics were sent to the worst institutions imaginable.

The most notorious was a Dr. Walter J. Freeman who perfected the ice pick lobotomy. He jammed an ice pick through a homosexual's eyes into the brain and performed a primitive lobotomy. He believed deeply this was the only way to cure homosexuality.

Absolutely horrific things, but what does that have to do with the claim that gays are presently struggling against a level of discrimination that is exactly the same as the civil rights era? I think just about anyone could dig back into the history of their ancestors and find atrocities done to them. You know at one time, Christians were ripped apart by wild animals for the amusement of Roman spectators.

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Absolutely horrific things, but what does that have to do with the claim that gays are presently struggling against a level of discrimination that is exactly the same as the civil rights era? I think just about anyone could dig back into the history of their ancestors and find atrocities done to them. You know at one time, Christians were ripped apart by wild animals for the amusement of Roman spectators.

As far as I can tell, you are the only one that said it was exactly the same. Most people simply point out that there are a lot of similarities. For example, I don't think lynching has been such a common activities against gays that it became accepted as normal in American society as it did against blacks many decades ago.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by janelle144

Because they are insecure and want to force others to accept them. They need validation.

Exactly. This is why gays are not satisfied with civil unions that give all the same legal benefits as a married couple. Equal rights and benefits but that's not good enough. They need that label "married" and to be married in a church because that forces society to accept their lifestyle as being natural and normal.