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Originally Posted by Eusebius jimmiej, that doesn't matter. God specifically told us to charge and teach that God will have all mankind to be saved and that God is the Saviour of all mankind.
So if there is, according to you, evidence that refutes God saving all mankind then that evidence is patently WRONG.
So, jimmiej, does your minister charge and teach God will save all or that "God will NOT save all"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Why doesn't that matter? Why does 1 Tim. 4 trump Matt. 25 or John 3?
Why doesn't what matter?
Matthew 25 and John 3 have to work in concert with 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10, not against it.
For instance Matthew 25:31-46 is many thousands of years prior to all being saved.
John 3 is concerned only with Israelites and the kingdom Christ will set up on the earth when He returns. The salvation of all comes at the conclusion of the eons/ages.
Eusebius is not using his terminology correctly. He insists that 1 Timothy passage is translated as 'God will save all' but this is obviously in error. He is using the English term 'will' as in 'Christmas will fall on December 25th', as an inevitability but the word used here is actually 'desire'. It should read 'God desires to save all', as shown in Luke 13:31. As has been shown through the Scripture, God does indeed desire that all men be saved, because he loves them (John 3:16) but He is bound by His perfect nature and justice and must hold to account those that reject Him.
Isa_44:28 Saying as to Cyrus, `My shepherd,' and `All My desire he will perform.' Saying as to Jerusalem, `It shall be built.' And the temple, `It shall be founded.'"
Isa_46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
The problem I see you are doing is this: Where thelo is used in a relative sense, you import the relative sense into every verse thelo is found. But thelo is often used in an absolute sense such as the case with 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and this:
Eph_1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:11 is the absolute usage of thelo as is 1 Tim.2:4-6.
Another instance of the absolute usage would be:
1Co_16:12 Now concerning brother Apollos, I entreat him much that he may be coming to you with the brethren, and it was undoubtedly not his will that he should come now, yet he will come whenever he should have an opportunity."
Here Jesus does that which He wills:
Mat_8:3 And, stretching out His hand, He touches him, saying, "I am willing! Be cleansed!" And immediately, cleansed is his leprosy.
If the Lord is willing, Paul will travel to the Corinthians. If the Lord is not willing, he can't go.
1Co_4:19 Yet I shall be coming to you swiftly, if ever the Lord should be willing, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power."
Jas_4:15 instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."
If the Lord should ever not be willing, you won't be doing this or that.
Matthew 25 and John 3 have to work in concert with 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10, not against it.
For instance Matthew 25:31-46 is many thousands of years prior to all being saved.
John 3 is concerned only with Israelites and the kingdom Christ will set up on the earth when He returns. The salvation of all comes at the conclusion of the eons/ages.
Maybe 1 Tim. needs to work in concert with Matt. 25 and John 3, not against it.
The above verses do not say such ones will NEVER EVER be saved. And if they did they would directly contradict God's very word of 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10,11; Romans 5:18,19; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; Ephesians 1:9,10; Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:14; John 4:42 to name but a few.
What you do not see is Paul and the disciples , the epistles, do contradict what Jesus said. So it shows they were not genuine followers of the son of man.
"Those in the west shall fear the name of the Lord and those in the east His glory."
What you do not see is Paul and the disciples , the epistles, do contradict what Jesus said. So it shows they were not genuine followers of the son of man.
"Those in the west shall fear the name of the Lord and those in the east His glory."
Oh brother!
Peter, Jame, John and the apostles all vouchsafed Paul's apostleship.
God truly will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind. It's too late. No use complaining about it. He ransomed all mankind before you were born. Enjoy the ride.
Jesus pretty much settle universalism in his revelation to John. There are definitely going to be people that are not found in the Book of Life that are going to be throne into the Lake of Fire, the second death, where they will not ever escape.
"12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then dean and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
I know that some will immediately jump on the "and if anyone's name was not found..." and claim that all of their names will be found in the book of life. But that is pure conjecture on their part. It doesn't say that anywhere in this passage or anywhere else in Scripture. Rather, Scripture says the opposite. Note that this is a further revelation of Daniel 12:1-2,
"1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of you people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
There will be people who are not written in the book of life, if they were therein written, then they wouldn't be judged according to their deeds, for we know that no one is saved through works, only by Grace through faith. Note that the second death has no power of those of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6). The fact that the second death has no power over the those of the first resurrection means that is does have power of those of the second resurrection at the great white throne judgment of Rev. 20:12-15.
But before anyone can say that this is not an eternal state, let's look at the eternal state. Revelation 21 goes on to talk about the new earth, the new heavens and the new Jerusalem, all of which are part of the eternal state. Also included in the eternal state is the new temple in the new Jerusalem (which happens to be floating over the earth!). In verse 25 of this chapter, John explains, "In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will bever be closed and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into." But there will be those that can never enter into the Temple of the eternal state, and that will be those who have been cast into the lake of fire because their names were not found written in the book of life. (Rev. 21:27)
Clearly the Scripture indicates and agrees with Jesus that there will be those who will not be saved. Some will (the great many unfortunately) suffer eternal death and never be saved. The doctrine of universal salvation, or universalism, simply is not found in, nor can it be extrapolated from the scriptures.
Jesus Christ gave His life for all , but there are condition for salvation , but anyone throughout the earth can take Jesus conditions and get saved ....So if people ignore Jesus conditions then they will not be saved until they believe in their lifetime , other wise if they fail to believe Jesus condition then they will perish
if all men would chose god then god himself removed the freedom to choose. That is not his way.
In order to have life you must be given life. That is his way.
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