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NONE of us are without sin. Pointing at someone who commits a sin as worse than ours is a feeble attempt to justify our own sins and tell ourselves we aren't NEARLY as sinful or evil as them. It's a way to soothe our consciences when they prick us for being jealous of someone else's figure, or house, or job, or notariety, or whatever. But thinking we are less sinful than someone else doesn't make it so. In fact I believe looking down on someone as inferior is not a LOVING action which is sin. Thinking that homeless bum on the street deserves his fate without knowing anything about his life is lovelessness. And I'm not saying that funding his current lifestyle is love either, but from the HEART comes all sort of evil and lies and none of us has a pure heart. Till you walk in the other person's shoes for awhile, we should not condemn them for we don't know what caused them to do what they did. And with what judgment you judge, you will be judged and you do NOT know what will be happening to YOU in a few days, or months, or years. You who think nothing will happen to disturb your marital situation.....you don't know if your husband or wife will come home tomorrow and say they are leaving you. I never expected it for sure. YOU may be able to stand the loneliness, uncertainty, loss of financial security or emotional security but many cannot. The companionship of another heart is one of the most pressing needs in the human soul. It's all good to say THEY should trust in God for everything and a few can do that. But as wonderful as that is, it cannot replace, in this physical realm, the touch of another. The sound of another's voice. The shared experiences. No, I know God is not demanding that of anyone. Should a person's last experience with marriage be rejection? Carry on with your accusations and judgmental attitudes. May God have mercy on us all.
He came to save the souls of sinners, not to merely make their present life more comfortable. Unless you were referring to their spiritual welfare.
You need to read more on Christian theology. For an introduction to the many widespread, popular theologies, read Professor Elizabeth Johnson's book, "Quest For The Living God." There are far more theologies of God in the here and now than there are "pie in the sky" which is almost exclusively American. Dr. Johnson quotes dozens of theologians and pastors in presenting the wide spectrum of God in theology.
For example, black slaves who were converted to Christianity viewed God as ultimately rescuing them from the mistaken view of their white masters who taught them Christianity to save their souls while keeping them enslaved. They had a liberation theology. God would rescue them NOW. Great faith--and it came true.
Hispanic people view God as walking with society as a WHOLE.
"By contrast, the modern liberal anthropology of the U.S. Mainstream culture envisions the fundamental unit of society as the individual. Human persons mature by distancing themselves from others in order to discover their own abilities.---The relationship is contractural, dependent on mutual consent. Thus the model can be characterized as 'egocentric contractural,' with priority to the individual over the group. To date, the sociocentric organic pattern of Hispanic culture has persisted through second and third generations in the United States, even amid financial and social success."
QUEST FOR THE LIVING GOD, Elizabeth Johnson, pg. 143.
Note the thinly veiled charge against American theological perspective---wealth results in emphasis on the individual and deemphasizes society as a whole.
Your theological perspective is a minority in God's world. The U.S. is in God's world, not the other way around. Jesus' very actions were constantly about how we treat people in the here and now. He healed, He stood up for those who were the objects of religious persecution, He promised the kingdom of God in the here and now (read Reza Aslan's ZEALOT).
In fact, turning Jesus' ministry into "pie in the sky" may have some Paulinian roots, but it is the antithesis of Christology.
Warning, Johnson's very fine book is akin to reading a doctoral thesis--but it is ever so enriching and enlightening.
I'm sorry but you are apparently a literalist, like Orthodox Jews, unable to see that anything which results in such a huge amount of human suffering cannot possibly be approved by Jesus. I haven't bothered to study Hebrew but how do you know that "putting away" in the original Hebrew wasn't the equivalent of divorce for them?
Your view in finding an "out" from Jesus' teachings regarding divorce are reminiscent of the Pharisees who would not provide for their parents because it was a gift for God--"Corban." But Jesus' rebuke was because they valued their scriptural understanding over people. And the welfare of people was the emphasis of Jesus for society as a whole.
Sin is not excusable even though it is forgivable.
LOL, this is probably the first time anyone here has called me a literalist...No, JJ_Maxx is a literalist. I'm probably more of a scripturally based "commonsensist" than anything and believe it or not, I'm also one who prefers to call the bible inspired rather than inerrant. I happen to think Jesus respected his fathers old testament law enough not to change one jot or tittle of it. Where there is no law, there is no transgression and while I think divorce CAN be a sin in many if not most situations because of what it usually entails, as I have already shown, it is not scripturally or logically consistant enough to call it a sin in ALL situations. In order for something to be considered a biblical sin, it needs to: 1. Be listed as a sin and/or 2. Violate the laws of love and/or 3. Be done not in faith or love. I don't believe it meets these criteria in all situations.
Jesus even made an exception clause saying "he who puts away his wife except for porneia (whoredom/sexual immorality) commits adultery"...so if it was a sin in all cases, Jesus wouldn't have made an exception..Ha! Whose the Jesus guy now?! lol No but seriously, I don't make a very good literalist but if inspite of everything thats been said so far you are still wanting to say all divorce is sinful all the time in any situation, you may just qualify as a legalist.
LOL, this is probably the first time anyone here has called me a literalist...No, JJ_Maxx is a literalist. I'm probably more of a scripturally based "commonsensist" than anything and believe it or not, I'm also one who prefers to call the bible inspired rather than inerrant. I happen to think Jesus respected his fathers old testament law enough not to change one jot or tittle of it. Where there is no law, there is no transgression and while I think divorce CAN be a sin in many if not most situations because of what it usually entails, as I have already shown, it is not scripturally or logically consistant enough to call it a sin in ALL situations. In order for something to be considered a biblical sin, it needs to: 1. Be listed as a sin and/or 2. Violate the laws of love and/or 3. Be done not in faith or love. I don't believe it meets these criteria in all situations.
Jesus even made an exception clause saying "he who puts away his wife except for porneia (whoredom/sexual immorality) commits adultery"...so if it was a sin in all cases, Jesus wouldn't have made an exception..Ha! Whose the Jesus guy now?! lol No but seriously, I don't make a very good literalist but if inspite of everything thats been said so far you are still wanting to say all divorce is sinful all the time in any situation, you may just qualify as a legalist.
Jesus also said divorce came about because of the "hardness of your hearts" and " from the beginning it was not so." Is that a blessing on divorce? And I do believe Jesus forgives hardened hearts.
The divorce rate among church attending Christians is almost as high as among secular people. And the awful impacts mentioned in earlier posts continue unabated--the impact of sin, and of hardened hearts.
So what percentage of divorced people end up that way because of unfaithfulness of one spouse and not for the myriad of reasons used? Then only half of that group have "permission" to marry again---and even then the awful consequences of divorce frequently live on in their lives and certainly in the life of society.
How does divorce and abandonment of the guilty party reflect the image of God's faithfulness in spite of our unfaithfulness? What it reflects is our inordinate concern with the individual as opposed to societal impact. With the blessing of all major denominations except Catholicism, we have tacitly accepted the state's view of "no- fault" divorce. I don't criticize the state for its ruling, I criticize churches for not preaching that God's people live by different rules.
As a postscript I add this quote from the Sept. 20th issue of The Guardian, article by Rebecca Smithers:
"It found that while in the 70s, 29% of marriages ended because of adultery, the latest figures show only 15% of divorces were down to infidelity. In the 70s unreasonable behaviour was cited in 28% of cases but it now accounts for almost half of all divorces (47%)."
At best 7 1/2% of divorces may have spouses with a biblical "out." And we all know there are cases where both spouses are committing adultery and neither has an "out."
Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-30-2014 at 04:23 PM..
The companionship of another heart is one of the most pressing needs in the human soul. It's all good to say THEY should trust in God for everything and a few can do that. But as wonderful as that is, it cannot replace, in this physical realm, the touch of another. The sound of another's voice. The shared experiences.
You are right. EVERYONE deserves this, and I don't think God would want anything else for us...ALL of us. I don't think God would punish us for seeking love and companionship. Who am I to tell someone they should or can't be with someone and to judge them for wanting to have what we all deserve.
Jesus also said divorce came about because of the "hardness of your hearts" and " from the beginning it was not so." Is that a blessing on divorce? And I do believe Jesus forgives hardened hearts.
The divorce rate among church attending Christians is almost as high as among secular people. And the awful impacts mentioned in earlier posts continue unabated--the impact of sin, and of hardened hearts.
So what percentage of divorced people end up that way because of unfaithfulness of one spouse and not for the myriad of reasons used? Then only half of that group have "permission" to marry again---and even then the awful consequences of divorce frequently live on in their lives and certainly in the life of society.
How does divorce and abandonment of the guilty party reflect the image of God's faithfulness in spite of our unfaithfulness? What it reflects is our inordinate concern with the individual as opposed to societal impact. With the blessing of all major denominations except Catholicism, we have tacitly accepted the state's view of "no- fault" divorce. I don't criticize the state for its ruling, I criticize churches for not preaching that God's people live by different rules.
As a postscript I add this quote from the Sept. 20th issue of The Guardian, article by Rebecca Smithers:
"It found that while in the 70s, 29% of marriages ended because of adultery, the latest figures show only 15% of divorces were down to infidelity. In the 70s unreasonable behaviour was cited in 28% of cases but it now accounts for almost half of all divorces (47%)."
At best 7 1/2% of divorces may have spouses with a biblical "out." And we all know there are cases where both spouses are committing adultery and neither has an "out."
Ok, for the sake of argument/understanding, lets say I accepted that the exception clause is the only biblical "out" and I agree with this 7 1/2% number (which is still a huge number of couples btw), would you say that even the 7 1/2% are still sinning by divorcing?
Ok, for the sake of argument/understanding, lets say I accepted that the exception clause is the only biblical "out" and I agree with this 7 1/2% number (which is still a huge number of couples btw), would you say that even the 7 1/2% are still sinning by divorcing?
I'm saying Jesus is still less than pleased with those with hardened hearts. And society still suffers for their hardness of heart.
And what is the point of getting an "out" for a particular sin? Most people sin in some way every day. Rarely however, is the result on society as a whole so broadly negative.
I'm saying Jesus is still less than pleased with those with hardened hearts. And society still suffers for their hardness of heart.
And what is the point of getting an "out" for a particular sin? Most people sin in some way every day. Rarely however, is the result on society as a whole so broadly negative.
Of course he's less than pleased with those who have hardened hearts...that doesn't mean everyone who got a divorce had a harden heart at the time. They may have been doing the only thing they could to save the marriage...Yeah I'm sure that poor abused woman who got a divorce to save her self and her children from endless abuse had a heart of stone Anyways, You're still talking as if its always a sin and your not really answering my question....unless that is your answer?
i think if one's marriage was a living hell then once one leaves it heaven should be expected
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No but seriously, I don't make a very good literalist but if inspite of everything thats been said so far you are still wanting to say all divorce is sinful all the time in any situation, you may just qualify as a legalist.
Anyways, You're still talking as if its always a sin and your not really answering my question....unless that is your answer?
