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Well, I am glad I was wrong. And good for you for being alert!
I would personally remove the word punishment from the definition since anyone reaching purgatory eventually ends in heaven.
But, the question remains: What to do with those that are not pure despite accepting Jesus?
Our righteousness has nothing to do with the issue of eternal salvation. When a person receives Christ as Savior God imputes His own perfect righteousness to that person which qualifies him to have an eternal relationship with God. In the matter of eternal salvation God looks at His own perfect absolute righteousness which has been credited to the believer rather than at the believer's own imperfect and relative experiential righteousness. Because God imputes His perfect righteousness to anyone who receives Christ as Savior He is able to pronounce that person justified regardless of the quality of his spiritual life or lack thereof. Read Romans chapters 3 through 5.
There is in reality no such thing as purgatory. If man could work off his sins in some purgatory then Christ never would have had to die for the sins of the world. The concept of purgatory implies that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient to pay the penalty for sin. It is a blasphemous belief.
You can register the names of your loved ones who have died and might be in Purgatory and 30 Masses will be said for them.
I am not sure that the fixed title really convey the content of your post.
Either the title is "We Can Help The Holy Souls In Purgatory" or...
The content of your post should be read as "The Holy Souls in Purgatory will say 30 Masses for Us". In which case, I am not sure why they would when they are the ones suffering worse in purgatory.
Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is why saying 30 Masses is not going to help any one. You are not going to find that as a promise in God's words, and yet we have scripture reproving such practises.
And there is no purgatory.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
There will be those saved believers labouring in unbelief to be saved when they are saved, or sowing to the works of the flesh with no repentance, or had their faith overthrown and thus they no longer believe in Him, but that those saved saints will be left behind when the Bridegroom comes at the pre tribulational rapture event to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ), but because He is still abiding in them, He will resurrect them in their new bodies after the great tribulation ( Read 2 Timothy 2:10-26 ) which is why every one "living on earth" now that has His seal should look to the author & finisher of our faith to depart from iniquity and leave the departed in His hands as they are in His hands. Trust Him.
Psalm 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: 8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever
Money can not do it, and neither can vain repetitions. Trust the Lord that they are in His care in spite of the wrongs they have done; they will answer for it, but Jesus will make them right in His sight, but better to turn to Jesus now for help to discern and depart from iniquity so as to be ready to go.
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Saved believers should be looking to the Good Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ, as we are and can only live this reconciled relationship with God the Father thru Jesus Christ...not thru the works of catholicism. Each of us has a fellowship with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ, but when we die, the Lord is still with us always.
John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.....6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth......20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If a person can Not walk away, so to speak, from his salvation then how does anyone explain it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who have tasted the heavenly free gift.....but have fallen away ? - Hebrews 6 vs 4-6
Wasn't saved Paul concerned that he could end up as a castaway according to 1st Corinthians 9 v 27 ?________
If a Christian could Not loose his salvation what would be the point of having to endure to the end ?______Matt. 24 v 13
Why work out one's salvation if there was No need to do so? ________Philippians 2 v 12 B
Matthew 24:13 refers to those believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. Being 'saved' here does not refer to eternal salvation, but to temporal salvation.
Working out one's salvation (Phil. 2:12) does not mean working for or earning one's salvation. It simply refers to the fact that the eternally saved believer is to put his spiritual life into practice.
If a person can Not walk away, so to speak, from his salvation then how does anyone explain it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who have tasted the heavenly free gift.....but have fallen away ? - Hebrews 6 vs 4-6
If you read on; you will see this as meaning once saved, you cannot be saved again because once saved, you are always saved, but God will judge the works ( the thorns & the briers ) as they will be burned away.
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
That means Christ's death and resurrection was not good enough the first time which would be why that would put Him to an open shame; which is why it will never happen and thus impossible for any saved believer to be saved again.
Look at the testimony of life received.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
So then we see the repercussion for falling away; the thorns & the briers.
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
And yet the purpose of this burning away is God purging them so they can be received.
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Quote:
Wasn't saved Paul concerned that he could end up as a castaway according to 1st
Corinthians 9 v 27 ?________
Yes; but not in the way you think. A castaway is one that is being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith ( that's the Lord Jesus Christ; NOT the Roman Catholic Church ) to depart from iniquity; whereas by His help, he would bring his body under submission from yielding to the lust of the flesh.
In Luke 12:40-49, Jesus warned all that would be His disciples to prepare as many saved believers will not be watching nor abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes at the pre tribulational rapture event. Notice how they are still His servants as receiving stripes for not being ready nor abiding in Him even though they have been cast off to have their portions with the unbelievers to face the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth; the coming fire & the following great tribulation.
Quote:
If a Christian could Not loose his salvation what would be the point of having
to endure to the end ?______Matt. 24 v 13
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Life sure has a way of taking our eyes off of Jesus in following Him, but those that trust the Lord to be their Good Shepherd ( NOT the Roman Catholic Church ) He will keep their eyes on Him to follow Him.
Quote:
Why work out one's salvation if there was No need to do so? ________Philippians 2 v 12 B
What we build on that foundation will be judged to whethor or not we will be accepted by Him as a vessel unto honour in His House which is by placing our confidence in Him to do His work in us to finish it by having us abide in Him to take us Home as that vessel unto honour OR... we continue as is, not looking to Him to be our Good Shepherd, and just follow the crowd whethor it be in religious works that deny Him as the Saviour that has saved them and thus they will be denied or sowing to the works of the flesh to be denied in that way; and even those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown where they no longer believe in Him, they will be denied, but because He still abides; ( 2 Timothy 2:10-13 ) they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonour in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) after the great tribulation for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:38-40 )
So there is a race to be run but not for salvation, but by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd in helping us abide in Him as His disciples by the words kept by those that loved Him & His words in the King James Bible; and yes, He will reveal the truth of that as well.
If saved believer run that race to be saved, then they are denying Him as the Saviour because they are saved. We run looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin for abdiing in Him as that too is done by His grace & by His help for Whom we shall genuinely praise Him for as no flesh shall glory in His Presence.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Our righteousness has nothing to do with the issue of eternal salvation. When a person receives Christ as Savior God imputes His own perfect righteousness to that person which qualifies him to have an eternal relationship with God. In the matter of eternal salvation God looks at His own perfect absolute righteousness which has been credited to the believer rather than at the believer's own imperfect and relative experiential righteousness. Because God imputes His perfect righteousness to anyone who receives Christ as Savior He is able to pronounce that person justified regardless of the quality of his spiritual life or lack thereof. Read Romans chapters 3 through 5.
There is in reality no such thing as purgatory. If man could work off his sins in some purgatory then Christ never would have had to die for the sins of the world. The concept of purgatory implies that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient to pay the penalty for sin. It is a blasphemous belief.
Your post is very elegant and convincing, but despite what Jesus had done the human remains imperfect and impure. Purgatory is a cleansing before entering heaven.
You assume Jesus takes care of everything from the instant Jesus is accepted, but fail to mention how Jesus does this.
You present a theological problem which obviously bothered the Catholic theologians of antiquity. How to get rid of those little sins that do not send anyone to hell.
If you are referring to works based salvation, the Bible flat out refutes that. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). Works have a place in the believer's spiritual life, but they are not the means of obtaining eternal life. The moment one puts his faith in Christ Jesus he is eternally saved. He is eternally secure and cannot lose or walk away from his salvation.
Consistent good works and abstaining from evil and impure things is EVIDENCE of sanctification. Salvation has already been given and secured to every person on the planet. Some people are 'WORKING OUT THAT SALVATION'. Some are not due to ignorance, obstinate spirits, delusions, etc... Many are those who name the name of Christ yet despise the poor, those with brown or black skin, those who disagree with them on any number of issues. Many are those who sit in the pews every week but never deal with the only problem they need to deal with -- themselves. These people are those who are always pointing their fingers at others and trying to say who is and is not going to be saved.
Our righteousness has nothing to do with the issue of eternal salvation. When a person receives Christ as Savior God imputes His own perfect righteousness to that person which qualifies him to have an eternal relationship with God. In the matter of eternal salvation God looks at His own perfect absolute righteousness which has been credited to the believer rather than at the believer's own imperfect and relative experiential righteousness. Because God imputes His perfect righteousness to anyone who receives Christ as Savior He is able to pronounce that person justified regardless of the quality of his spiritual life or lack thereof. Read Romans chapters 3 through 5.
There is in reality no such thing as purgatory. If man could work off his sins in some purgatory then Christ never would have had to die for the sins of the world. The concept of purgatory implies that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient to pay the penalty for sin. It is a blasphemous belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Your post is very elegant and convincing, but despite what Jesus had done the human remains imperfect and impure. Purgatory is a cleansing before entering heaven.
The believer in Christ Jesus has already been cleansed and is completely clean as stated in John 13:10.
John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, 4] got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself. 5] Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6] So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?" 7] Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter." 8] Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." 9] Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." 10] Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."11] For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
At the last supper, Jesus washed the feet of the disciples to illustrate the fact that having bathed, having been cleansed of sin through faith in Him, they were completely clean. The exception was Judas Iscariot who had never received Christ as Savior. Having bathed, they need only wash their feet. This is analogous to confession of sin as in 1 John 1:9.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Having believed in Christ, the believer has bathed and is clean. He needs only to name to God the Father any sin he commits as a believer to be restored to temporal fellowship (abiding in Christ). The believer has a permanent position in Christ which is unaffected by sin. But sin in the believer's life does put the believer out of fellowship and into a state of carnality under the control of his old sin nature. He is eternally saved and cannot lose his salvation, but his rapport with Christ is interrupted until he names the sin. Because all sin was judged at the cross, God can forgive the sin when the believer simply names, cites, identifies, acknowledges that he sinned. That's grace. The believer doesn't have to feel sorry for the sin, or do penance, or promise not to sin again. He simply has to admit that he sinned. When he does, the sin is forgiven and the believer is restored to fellowship.
The visual below illustrates the difference between the believer's permanent position in Christ (the top circle), and the believer temporal position (the bottom circle). The believer can never get out of the top circle, but when he sins he does exit the bottom circle. When he names whatever sin he committed, he reenters the bottom circle
At any given moment the believer is either in fellowship and in status quo spirituality, or is out of fellowship and in a state of carnality as a result of sin. When the sin is named, he regains the filling of the Spirit which is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is permanent. The filling of the Spirit is lost when the believer sins, and regained when the sin is confessed.
Quote:
You assume Jesus takes care of everything from the instant Jesus is accepted, but fail to mention how Jesus does this.
You present a theological problem which obviously bothered the Catholic theologians of antiquity. How to get rid of those little sins that do not send anyone to hell.
There is no distinction between sins which send you to hell and sins which do not send you to hell. Sin is not the issue in salvation because Jesus already paid the penalty on the cross for every sin we will ever commit in our life. We were never condemned for our personal sins in the first place. The only sin which we were condemned for was Adam's original sin (Romans 5:12-19). Our own personal sins, instead of being imputed to us for condemnation were instead imputed to Christ as He hung on the cross. And He paid the penalty for our sins (1Peter 2:24; Hebrews 10:10-14).
Christ's work on the cross in paying the penalty for our sins propitiated or satisfied the justice of God and redeemed us from the slave market of sin. To use an accounting analogy, the work of Christ on the cross removed us from the debit side of the ledger, taking us out of the red. But it is only when we believe in Christ that we are put on the credit side of the ledger, in the black. Despite the fact that Jesus died for us all, despite the fact that He paid the penalty for every sin that will ever be committed in human history, there is still the issue of our imperfect relative righteousness with which God's perfect absolute righteousness cannot have fellowship. That issue is resolved when at the moment a person simply places his trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ, God the Father imputes or credits His perfect righteousness to that person. To have an eternal relationship with God a person has to have two things. He has to have a righteousness which is acceptable to God, and a life which is the same as God's life. When we receive Christ as Savior God imputes both His perfect righteousness (see Romans chapters 3-5) and His eternal life (1 John 5:11-13) to us which qualifies us to live with Him forever.
Our righteousness is not the issue in salvation. As believers in Christ we have His righteousness. Now, if we live in continual sin God will discipline us in time, and we can lose eternal rewards, but we cannot lose our eternal life.
Consistent good works and abstaining from evil and impure things is EVIDENCE of sanctification. Salvation has already been given and secured to every person on the planet. Some people are 'WORKING OUT THAT SALVATION'. Some are not due to ignorance, obstinate spirits, delusions, etc... Many are those who name the name of Christ yet despise the poor, those with brown or black skin, those who disagree with them on any number of issues. Many are those who sit in the pews every week but never deal with the only problem they need to deal with -- themselves. These people are those who are always pointing their fingers at others and trying to say who is and is not going to be saved.
No, everyone has not been saved, and everyone will not be saved. All who die without receiving Christ as Savior will be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.
Redemption refers to the saving work of Christ on the cross directed toward sin by which He purchased our freedom from sin. As a result of Christ's redemptive work, anyone who simply places his faith in Him has eternal life. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not by any meritorious works on our part.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
You cannot earn eternal life by your works. It is offered only as a free gift which is received through faith in Christ Jesus.
You can't earn eternal life by good works but you can lose salvation by living a sinful life.
You can't earn eternal life by good works but you can lose salvation by living a sinful life.
No, Janelle. You cannot. You probably won't believe what I said there but please see post #37.
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8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
