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So Revelation says many times that God is temporary? That is easier to believe than that hell is for ever and ever?
And that folks is what I have pointed out many times. Those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation tie Gods eternal (in its true sense ) to ONE word. In other words if aion does not mean eternal then God cannot be eternal, even if there are other words that show Gods eternalness.
Death is not “also called ‘the second death’". If it were what would the first death be? The first death, death without a numeric qualifier, is simply death as we know it when our bodies cease living. If death without a qualifier is “the second death” then this makes no sense:
Rev. 20:14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
The second death is thrown into the second death? Obviously it is the first death that dies. No one will ever die that death again. Everyone will live forever, in heaven or in hell.
If you say so.
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God becomes all in all when Jesus has “put everything under his feet” and submits to God. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is the first death kind of death as we have just seen. This is when God descends from heaven in the New Jerusalem and dwells with his people. This is immediately after the judgment and those not in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire. Do they immediately get out again? Do Satan, the beast and the false prophet also get out again? What happens to them? They are enemies of God. Are they destroyed? What about the other souls in the lake? Maybe they get destroyed too? If so, they are definitely not saved. No universalism.
If you want to insert a time lag after the judgment and before the descent of the New Jerusalem, what are the souls of the righteous doing in the meantime? And where is there any scriptural justification for such a possibility? Revelation says no such thing. Are they in Hades, the place where the dead sleep until the resurrection? Sorry, that is already gone.
The chronology of Paul and the chronology of Revelation match just fine. It is your chronology that makes up events not in Revelation that has got a problem.
Christ does not give up the reign UNTIL all sovereignty, authority and power is done away and death abolished. In Revelation, on the new earth, there are still sovereignties, authorities and powers and death. If death was not operational on the new earth, why do the nations need the leaves of the tree for their healing? Immortal people don't need healing.
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Death is death. Hades is the place where souls sleep until the resurrection.
“This is a Greek word, meaning: that which is out of sight, the state or place of the dead. Equivalent to the Hebrew: sheol.” Hades
Hardly surprising that death and Hades are linked.
The exact same Greek phrase - eis tous aionas ton aionon – appears a number of times in Revelation.
Rev 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!
Rev 4:9-10 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever.
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
Rev 7:11-12 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
Rev 10:5-6
5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Rev 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
You are merely quoting a TRANSLATION. Why don't you quote Young's Literal?
Also, if "ever" is a proper translation of AIWN, and things are said to be "for ever" then we know the "ever" can't be eternal because the Bible says all the "evers" end.
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Are you saying God is temporary? Or maybe when Revelation says “for ever and ever” it means for ever and ever.
So if those with Christ and Christ LIVE and reign a thousand years according to Revelation 20:4, are we supposed to get "a thousand years" re-interpreted to mean "eternal" just so those and Christ don't die when the 1000 years ends?
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The unrighteous go into the lake of fire at the judgment and stay there for ever and ever.
If death, IE the lake of fire is forever and ever and is the wages of sin, and Jesus died for our sins, Gods judgment being pour out on Him, and if no one escapes this death, is Jesus still in this lake of fire for all eternity?
False assumption or a lack of understanding, as Jesus died and was resurrected before anything went into the lake of Fire.
A.T. the eternal God, spoken of here does NOT use the Hebrew word olam, it uses Qedem. they are not the same word.
1 scripture down more to come.
Actually it does.
BHT (This is a direct transliteration) Deuteronomy 33:27 mü`önâ ´élöºhê qeºdem ûmiTTaºHat zürö`öt `ôläm wayügäºreš miPPänʺkä ´ôyëb wayyöº´mer hašmëd
(1631a) ~l'A[ (±ôlam) forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV Similar in general, but substitutes "always" for "in the world" in Psa 73:12 and "eternity" for "world" in Eccl 3:11.) Probably derived from ±¹lam I, "to hide," thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognate is ±lm, "eternity."
60:15 Instead of thy being forsaken and hated, And none passing through, I have made thee for an excellency age-during, A joy of generation and generation.
Even in your quote it is for many generations, does many generations = eternity? Just how many words are we going to have to say mean eternal?
Young's is a nice translation and I have it.
However that is his view of the meaning of the word, not necessarily a complete understanding of it in context. Since it is for generation and generation the indication is eternal, generation after generation or generation to generation with the indication of no final generation. You can't take a meaning out of the context as the context is used to establish meaning when translating from one language to another, not just the base meanings.
JPS (Jewish Publication Society)Isaiah 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man passed through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
NIV Isaiah 60:15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated, with no one traveling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and the joy of all generations.
TANAKH Isaiah 60:15 Whereas you have been forsaken, Rejected, with none passing through, I will make you a pride everlasting, A joy for age after age.
Theology is what you are using for an understanding, not grammar.
In each of those scripture Young's literal has age during. In other words the life that pertains to that age.
So what>???
Young's is one translation and he does not expand on what he means by age during. You are reading more (Actually less) into it than the context provides. Your meaning is driven by theology not word meaning and grammar.
The LXX, translated by Hebrew scholars before Jesus day reads:
LXE Isaiah 60:15 Because thou has become desolate and hated, and there was no helper, therefore I will make thee a perpetual gladness, a joy of many generations.
Here Olam is rendered as:
801 aiwnios, on (sometimes oj, i,a, on) eternal, everlasting, opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular
Well seems I did have time before work to make an answer to your scriptures after all.
Whereas you use men to give you your understanding of what aion and its adjective to mean, I use the scriptures themselves, which state that the aion have a beginning and an end.
Gee, I wonder which one is more infallible, the scriptures or men.
You go ahead and stick with mans understanding, I will stick with what the scriptures actually state.
Actually you use men, in fact one man at times, Young. I use the grammar, context and scholars to show that you are following a theological teaching of men, not the Bible.
Then your saying Jesus did not pay the wages of sin. You can't have it both ways.
Go back and read the post. Jesus did not go into the lake of Fire. He went to the grave, sheol, hades, hell, which we know is later tossed into the lake of Fire after all are out of it.
ASV Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.
EvenYoung gets it:
YLT Psalm 16:10 For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.
YLT Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Jesus paid the price with his human life, died and was resurrected to heaven as an indication the price was accepted. That is the end of it. No more price to pay and the price was accepted.
OK, you are wrong on this even according to Young's Literal Translation. You are wrong on the word meanings in scripture as well.
YLT Revelation 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.
Oh, notice the ages of the ages and both plural thus all ages for all time with no end.
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Obviously it is the first death that dies. No one will ever die that death again. Everyone will live forever, in heaven or in hell.
