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expatCA,
Olam cannot have the duration of eternal. The Greek Jews translated Olam as aiwn and aiwnios. Since the Bible tells us all the eons end, and since Olam was translated a aion/eon, it cannot be endless.
(1631a) ~l'A[ (±ôlam) forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV Similar in general, but substitutes "always" for "in the world" in Psa 73:12 and "eternity" for "world" in Eccl 3:11.) Probably derived from ±¹lam I, "to hide," thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognate is ±lm, "eternity."
This is from the text of Deut 33:27.
Then we have two different words used. One that uses olam and the other one that uses qudem.
And neither mean eternal. The Jews have never understood olam to mean eternal expat, so there is absolutly no way it can mean eternal.
Here is the way the Jews translate those scriptures, from the complete Jewish tanach.
26. Jeshurun, there is none like God; He Who rides the heavens is at your assistance, and with His majesty, [He rides] the skies,
27. which are the abode for the God Who precedes all, and below, are the mighty ones of the world. He expelled the enemy from before you, and said, 'Destroy!'
I would think the Jews would have a better understanding of their own language then any of these so called experts that you guys keep linking to.
However that is his view of the meaning of the word, not necessarily a complete understanding of it in context. Since it is for generation and generation the indication is eternal, generation after generation or generation to generation with the indication of no final generation. You can't take a meaning out of the context as the context is used to establish meaning when translating from one language to another, not just the base meanings.
JPS (Jewish Publication Society)Isaiah 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man passed through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
NIV Isaiah 60:15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated, with no one traveling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and the joy of all generations.
TANAKH Isaiah 60:15 Whereas you have been forsaken, Rejected, with none passing through, I will make you a pride everlasting, A joy for age after age.
Theology is what you are using for an understanding, not grammar.
Well I actually use both.
So if olam is understood to mean eternal, as you guys have been saying, then there would be no reason to add, of many generations, all generations or age after age. That would simply be redundant.
Young's is one translation and he does not expand on what he means by age during. You are reading more (Actually less) into it than the context provides. Your meaning is driven by theology not word meaning and grammar.
The LXX, translated by Hebrew scholars before Jesus day reads:
LXE Isaiah 60:15 Because thou has become desolate and hated, and there was no helper, therefore I will make thee a perpetual gladness, a joy of many generations.
Here Olam is rendered as:
801 aiwnios, on (sometimes oj, i,a, on) eternal, everlasting, opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular
Because it is more faithfully translated. Go ask any Jew what the meaning of olam is, they will NOT tell you it means eternal. They will tell you it is an indetermanite length of time.
Thus to argue, as you guys have been doing, that olam means eternal is basically saying the Jew do not know their own language.
So if olam is understood to mean eternal, as you guys have been saying, then there would be no reason to add, of many generations, all generations or age after age. That would simply be redundant.
Olam has the meaning of eternal, but not always in both directions or even without end. Context supplies the full meaning, not simply the word standing alone.
Next age after age is a translation and is one of many ways to do it. You have to consider all of them, not just one of them. The redundancy was Young's choice, to bring out the full meaning in English. Translating is a practice that recognizes the multiple meanings of words, idiom, context, grammar and more. You want to restrict it to one meaning only and that won't fly.
Oh I quoted Jewish translators and their works, so again more than one is needed to get the full range of meanings. Can't just pick the one you like.
Because it is more faithfully translated. Go ask any Jew what the meaning of olam is, they will NOT tell you it means eternal. They will tell you it is an indetermanite length of time.
Thus to argue, as you guys have been doing, that olam means eternal is basically saying the Jew do not know their own language.
Can't ask modern Jews as the Hebrew of today is not Biblical Hebrew. Plus as I noted in the post, Jewish scholars know the wide range of meanings, beyond what you want.
Again the Jews in Alexandria before Jesus day knew both Biblical Hebrew and Greek and used:
801 aiwnios, on (sometimes oj, i,a, on) eternal, everlasting, opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular
Notice the "opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory);" that is the meaning you want and it is from another word.They knew their language better than any Jew today.
Actually you use men, in fact one man at times, Young. I use the grammar, context and scholars to show that you are following a theological teaching of men, not the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
I see you follow a man, Young, without actually comprehending what the words mean in context.
Lol, I use many different bible expat, and nothing you have brought out so far from scripture states aion or alam means eternal, you have to go outside to you lexicons and dictionaries. I on the other hand have given you scriptures stating that aion has a beginning and an end. I have also pointed out that the Jews, whose language we are speaking about concerning olam, don't hold olam to mean eternal.
So far your only proof has been lexicons and dictonaries.
Go ahead and try by scripture to reconcile what we are commanded to teach ( Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, speacially of those that believe ) with what you believe. You simply cannot do it by scripture and the reason you cannot do it is because you are not using grammer and context. I on the other hand can do it quite easy, gee I wounder why.
Originally Posted by expatCA Actually you use men, in fact one man at times, Young. I use the grammar, context and scholars to show that you are following a theological teaching of men, not the Bible.
expatCA, Olam/aion/aionion can mean eternal if you use context.
Whenever Olam or aionion are used as adjectives and connected with God, the words do not tell us how long God lives but rather His relationship to the eons.
Go back and read the post. Jesus did not go into the lake of Fire. He went to the grave, sheol, hades, hell, which we know is later tossed into the lake of Fire after all are out of it.
ASV Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.
EvenYoung gets it:
YLT Psalm 16:10 For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.
YLT Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Jesus paid the price with his human life, died and was resurrected to heaven as an indication the price was accepted. That is the end of it. No more price to pay and the price was accepted.
OK, you are wrong on this even according to Young's Literal Translation. You are wrong on the word meanings in scripture as well.
YLT Revelation 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.
Oh, notice the ages of the ages and both plural thus all ages for all time with no end.
So in other word you are saying Jesus did not pay the wages of sin, or the wages of sin is not the second death. You cannot have it both ways
Olam has the meaning of eternal, but not always in both directions or even without end. Context supplies the full meaning, not simply the word standing alone.
Next age after age is a translation and is one of many ways to do it. You have to consider all of them, not just one of them. The redundancy was Young's choice, to bring out the full meaning in English. Translating is a practice that recognizes the multiple meanings of words, idiom, context, grammar and more. You want to restrict it to one meaning only and that won't fly.
Oh I quoted Jewish translators and their works, so again more than one is needed to get the full range of meanings. Can't just pick the one you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Can't ask modern Jews as the Hebrew of today is not Biblical Hebrew. Plus as I noted in the post, Jewish scholars know the wide range of meanings, beyond what you want.
Again the Jews in Alexandria before Jesus day knew both Biblical Hebrew and Greek and used:
801 aiwnios, on (sometimes oj, i,a, on) eternal, everlasting, opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular
Notice the "opposite pro,skairoj (temporary, transitory);" that is the meaning you want and it is from another word.They knew their language better than any Jew today.
Give a scripture and explain why it must mean eternal? You guys can't seem to give me even one scripture, why is that? You can qoute a the lexicon and dictonaries you like, but the Jew of old did not understand olam to mean eternal and did not understand Gehenna to be eternal. Thus in context when Jesus was speaking to the Jews He would have used language as they understood it. Gehenna to the Jewish mind is up to a 12 months of purification, and the Jews still maintain that belief today.
Kind of undoes all you lexicon and dictonary stuff does it not.
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