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Your problem is your idol, God is love, that remains still when He throws His enemies forever into the lake of fire. God is souverain, what you are doing is to create another God, who is not the God of the bible, face the facts as a believer and repent, than you love God and it will be well with you, no problem. I proved to you, that the punishment for ungodly sinners is eternal, for ever. The only way to say that is not the God of love is to reject the God of the bible, what some do already and not to believe in the bible, what is mostly the beginning of the downfall. But every one can believe what he wants, my or your believe does not change anything, so relax and let the true God be God, He knows, what is good for us, I love Him and know that He is GREAT!
what is your context? you must understand the following:
1. God is sovereign
2. God's discipline is restorative. He restores the victim and rehabilitates the sinner.
3. The law of jubilee. Every man is restored to his inheritance every 50 years. All debts are canceled. You could be redeemed from your debt note before the year of jubilee. But jubilee limits the duration of dis-inheritance.
4. The three feasts.
5. the pattern of the temple.
6. God limits the amount of punishment to 40 lashes lest you demean your brother. Why then would he not limit his discipline? The law defines God's character.
7. Rapture and eternal damnation were not tenets of the early church. Those teachings were inserted by men and now they are passed along without question from preacher to preacher to preacher.
8. much much more.
Finally, I will say to some of you that the message of the Kingdom of God and complete salvation will not be accepted by all. That is also a fact. But that does not change the fact that we will all benefit from the restoration of God.
what is your context? you must understand the following:
1. God is sovereign
2. God's discipline is restorative. He restores the victim and rehabilitates the sinner.
3. The law of jubilee. Every man is restored to his inheritance every 50 years. All debts are canceled. You could be redeemed from your debt note before the year of jubilee. But jubilee limits the duration of dis-inheritance.
4. The three feasts.
5. the pattern of the temple.
6. God limits the amount of punishment to 40 lashes lest you demean your brother. Why then would he not limit his discipline? The law defines God's character.
7. Rapture and eternal damnation were not tenets of the early church. Those teachings were inserted by men and now they are passed along without question from preacher to preacher to preacher.
8. much much more.
Finally, I will say to some of you that the message of the Kingdom of God and complete salvation will not be accepted by all. That is also a fact. But that does not change the fact that we will all benefit from the restoration of God.
Shalom! Let God's restoration come! But that does not mean I have not to believe the bible. The rapture and eternal punishment are in the bible. Jesus says to the Jews, if you do not believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins. There is a death penalty for sins unto death, not for all sins. The one that is thrown into the lake of fire (second death) perishes, is lost (Isa 66:22-24). But they that trust in the Lord, there is hope of eternal salvation! The choice is ours!
Shalom! Let God's restoration come! But that does not mean I have not to believe the bible. The rapture and eternal punishment are in the bible.
Of course eternal punishment is in the Bible . . . a poorly translated Bible.
Quote:
Jesus says to the Jews, if you do not believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins. There is a death penalty for sins unto death, not for all sins.
Funny that Jesus did not say "if you do not believe that I am He, you will receive eternal punishment."
Quote:
The one that is thrown into the lake of fire (second death) perishes, is lost (Isa 66:22-24). But they that trust in the Lord, there is hope of eternal salvation! The choice is ours!
Actually the choice is God's. God chooses, God saves.
"Perish" does not ever mean "eternal loss" in the bible.
Agreed, you got it right, but I do not think the OP will agree with you, he will always say that refers to an age and an age will always end. That is his mantra. But not to cast off to an age and than to cast off for an age makes no sense, you are right, it should be translated forever. There is also the word "olam" in connection with "laad" what always means forever (leolam vaed). I do not think, if we read it in the OT in context, it should have the abillity to be endless.
l'olamvaed is "for the eon and beyond." If it meant "for eternity and beyond" how could the "beyond" get beyond eternity?
In the Lam 3 verse it seems to me that the length of time spoken of is forever.
I'm not saying it uses the literal words "cast off" but the idea is the same. Negative judgments or consequences for sin are referred to as olam. Here is what I had in mind when I wrote that.
Isaiah 32:11-15
Tremble, you women who are at ease;
Be troubled, you complacent ones;
Strip yourselves, make yourselves bare,
And gird sackcloth on your waists.
People shall mourn upon their breasts
For the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine.
On the land of my people will come up thorns and briers,
Yes, on all the happy homes in the joyous city;
Because the palaces will be forsaken,
The bustling city will be deserted.
The forts and towers will become lairs forever,
A joy of wild donkeys, a pasture of flocks—
Until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high,
And the wilderness becomes a fruitful field,
And the fruitful field is counted as a forest.
Agreed, you got it right, but I do not think the OP will agree with you, he will always say that refers to an age and an age will always end. That is his mantra. But not to cast off to an age and than to cast off for an age makes no sense, you are right, it should be translated forever. There is also the word "olam" in connection with "laad" what always means forever (leolam vaed). I do not think, if we read it in the OT in context, it should have the abillity to be endless.
That because the Jews tell us that olam does not mean eternity. Now do you not think they should know how they use their own words?
Many people who believe in eternal torment realise that olam does not mean eternal so in order to get the sense of eternal from olam they say things like olam to olam was the Jewish way of expressing eternal.
Well if that is correct ( it ain't ) then olam cannot mean eternal by itself.
Shalom! Let God's restoration come! But that does not mean I have not to believe the bible. The rapture and eternal punishment are in the bible. Jesus says to the Jews, if you do not believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins. There is a death penalty for sins unto death, not for all sins. The one that is thrown into the lake of fire (second death) perishes, is lost (Isa 66:22-24). But they that trust in the Lord, there is hope of eternal salvation! The choice is ours!
Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the eternal fire and brimstone, yet they are to be restored. Kind of defeats your whole believe doesn't it.
For the Lord will not cast off for a long duration.
This answers to the verses that follow about mercy.
The same way you Isaiah scriptures do, The forts and towers will become lairs forever,.... UNTIL.....
Because the context is not about long time vs short time being cast off. It about whether God will be merciful again or not. It's about is there any hope or not. It's about are we consumed in judgment or not.
If it were long duration vs short duration then there would be hope in both these cases and eventual mercy in both cases and man not consumed in both cases.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 11-17-2014 at 06:24 PM..
11-17-2014, 06:04 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come
Yes, that's an example where the word "forever" doesn't really mean "forever", it means for your whole life. And that's kind of my point. The meaning of words can be affected by their context.
Yes, and the opposite is also true - a word that once had a temporary meaning or and ending could conceivably take on a meaning of not having an end or forever particularly one referring to long periods of time and one in which the translation moves into a different cultural context - like that of the Greco-Roman world. This happened in a few places with the LXX - Hebrew contexts and thought were replaced with Greek ones.
11-17-2014, 06:25 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Hi Shiloh, I found this, that I believe gives a good description of the M priesthood and what that priesthood is suppose to do.
In Heb.5:6, Psa.110:4 'Thou shalt be a priest 'to olam', is quoted as in LXX 'to (or for) the aion'. No difficulty arise here. Rev.21:22 states that in the New Jerusalem, the seer saw 'no temple'. It matters little how one interprets the term 'New Jerusalem', the fact remains that the N.T. predicts that in those far off future times of the consummation of the aeonian purpose of God, sin and death, enmity and sorrow "shall be no more'. Where no sin remains, no sacrificial priestly service can be needed. the Son's office as priest therefore cannot be 'for ever", but only for the age or period in which any humanity are estranged from God.
The whole argument of this section of Hebrews is that the Aaronic priesthood and sacrificial ritual 'brought nothing to completion'.
It was a treadmill of repetitive service which could not make the participants perfect. But Christ's priestly intercession is to continue "for ever", his priesthood will have no more attained its objective than the Aaronic.
Once human estrangement has been replaced by universal reconciliation, no further priestly mediacy will be needed. Hence Christ is, 'priest after the order of Melchisadech for the age, 'eis ton aiona'. These remarks apply also to Heb.6:20, 7:17,21,24 and 28 each of which refers to the Son's priesthood.
Therefore if Jesus priesthood was eternal and we needed his intercession to continue forever then his priesthood is no different then the Aaronic preisthood for we would never then become perfect or be complete in Him.
A couple of points here: 1) This is not the intent of the writer of Hebrews. 2) It still fails to see the analogy/comparison with endless life, 3) It fails to take note that the focus is not upon the mediacy of Christ (the time period after the cross and his work on behalf of believers as he is in heaven) but the Sacrifice - which is a one time event that completes something - there is no end to that work in that sense and 4) Number 3 is seen in Hebrews 9:26-28, where it is also said that this Sacrifice was at the CONSUMMATION of the AGES. As such his priestly sacrifice is what is eis ton aiona - forever.
Your points are good, theologically, but they are still prejudiced by that framework and you using other books as a standard that you are still using to interpret these passages in Hebrews.
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