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Old 11-08-2014, 09:01 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,875,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
.............The problem with the Exodus is no one can agree which Egyptian dynasty was in rule during the events in the Bible. The Sinai dessert is 23,000 square miles. Am I to believe that we have excavated this entire area to come to your conclusions? Also, if the Israelities were nomadic, we wouldn't find cities and ruins buried in the desert. It would be small artifacts in a very large place.
I wonder how archaeologists have been able to find Native Artifacts in large quantities in North America, with a land mass of xxx and an estimated population of 1.2 million at the low and 4 million at the high estimate people prior to 1492.

In a land mass of 9,540,000 square miles. Most of those tribes were nomadic. So, how can they find artifacts for that small of a population in that large a land mass, and not find any indications in only 23,000 square miles where 4 million people supposedly were for 40 years.

It just stretches credulity way to far. WAY to far.


Quote:
And finally, you have no evidence that someone wrote the Bible as a piece of fiction.
And you have no proof that it is true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 
Old 11-08-2014, 09:48 PM
 
10,072 posts, read 5,687,968 times
Reputation: 2887
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
I wonder how archaeologists have been able to find Native Artifacts in large quantities in North America, with a land mass of xxx and an estimated population of 1.2 million at the low and 4 million at the high estimate people prior to 1492.

In a land mass of 9,540,000 square miles. Most of those tribes were nomadic. So, how can they find artifacts for that small of a population in that large a land mass, and not find any indications in only 23,000 square miles where 4 million people supposedly were for 40 years.

It just stretches credulity way to far. WAY to far.
And just how many native Americans do you think lived in NA over the centuries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post

And you have no proof that it is true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Thankfully for you, you get to define what is extraordinary so that way you can always reject proof of God.
 
Old 11-08-2014, 10:13 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,875,624 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
And just how many native Americans do you think lived in NA over the centuries?
No one knows, but considering the NA is over 400 times as large as the Sinai area, that there were much smaller populations at first, and that even in the Arctic they have found artifacts going back 12,000 years, one would have thought that 4,000,000 people would have left something. Anything. But nada.


Quote:
Thankfully for you, you get to define what is extraordinary so that way you can always reject proof of God.
An omnipotent sentient invisible god is extraordinary. Extraordinary proof would be needed, just like Zeus, Thor or Quetzalcoatl would need extraordinary proof. None exists for them, none exists for your god.
 
Old 11-08-2014, 10:57 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
Reputation: 7424
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Lack of evidence is not evidence or proof. In fact, your position is a logical fallacy.
Now how far do you think you'd get in court with a dodge like that? How in the heck can me saying that trained archeologists who have been hunting for evidence of Exodus for two centuries and have come up empty-handed be construed be you, somebody who knows nothing about archeology, as a logical fallacy. That in itself is not logical.





Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
The problem with the Exodus is no one can agree which Egyptian dynasty was in rule during the events in the Bible. The Sinai dessert is 23,000 square miles. Am I to believe that we have excavated this entire area to come to your conclusions? Also, if the Israelities were nomadic, we wouldn't find cities and ruins buried in the desert. It would be small artifacts in a very large place.
This is like shooting ducks in a barrel. We know that the Bible says Moses led the Israelites circa 1450 BC. We know the exact dynasty of that period. Your problem is, going forward or backward 300, 400 years---actually you pick the number of years---there is absolutely no evidence in Egypt--their hieroglyphics, their writings, their artifacts, nada--that 3 million Israelites ever occupied Egypt in that timeframe and more, left Egypt in such a mass exodus. Such an event would have crashed the Egyptian society, yet all their historic records show business as usual through this 700-800 period 400 years either side of 1450 BC.

Quote:
According to Prof. Ze'ev Herzog who teaches in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies at Tel Aviv University, in "Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho", states as follows:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom...... Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells." (in an article in the Jewish magazine Haaretz, as republished on):

http://www.truthbeknown.com/biblemyth.htm
Read the bolded, jeff. That's a Jewish professor of archeology and Ancient Near East Studies saying that. Are you going to argue with him? Are you going to actually say to him, "You're wrong, Professor Herzog, because my Bible says Moses led 3 million Israelites out of Egypt and parted the Red Sea to help them escape." Why, you'd be laughed out of the room, if not the country.

Quote:
The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible.[SIZE=2][15][/SIZE] According to Exodus 12:37–38, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock.[SIZE=2][16][/SIZE] Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up.[SIZE=2][17][/SIZE] The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people,[SIZE=2][18][/SIZE] compared with an entire Egyptian population in 1250 BCE of around 3 to 3.5 million.[SIZE=2][19][/SIZE] Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[SIZE=2][20][/SIZE] No evidence has been found that indicates Egypt ever suffered such a demographic and economic catastrophe or that the Sinai desert ever hosted (or could have hosted) these millions of people and their herds.[SIZE=2][21][/SIZE]
Read the bolded again very carefully, jeff. That's what's called proof by historians and archeologists that no exodus ever occurred the way the Bible describes. Stack that against an account that reads more like myth and fable than true history with talking bushes and rods turning into snakes and rivers turning to blood. You really can't recognize mythology when you see it, can you. But hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just repeating what trained experts with PhD's in the field are saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
And finally, you have no evidence that someone wrote the Bible as a piece of fiction.
You're right. I can't prove the Bible is fiction anymore than you can prove it's reliable history. We have to go with what the experts say and again, the weight of evidence is on the exodus never having happened

1. no material evidence in the Sinai eg. clay pots, bone fragments of 3 million Israelites who died out in the wilderness, etc.
2. no Egyptian records of 3 million Israelites ever having left Egypt; heck, no Egyptian records of 3 million Israelites ever having occupied Egypt.
3. no evidence that the disastrous impact it would have had on Egyptian society, had such an exodus actually occurred, did occur.

That's the evidence, jeff. And you've got the Bible.

Who do you think is going to come out on top in a debate? Hint: not you.
 
Old 11-08-2014, 11:37 PM
 
10,072 posts, read 5,687,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Now how far do you think you'd get in court with a dodge like that? How in the heck can me saying that trained archeologists who have been hunting for evidence of Exodus for two centuries and have come up empty-handed be construed be you, somebody who knows nothing about archeology, as a logical fallacy. That in itself is not logical.
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post


This is like shooting ducks in a barrel. We know that the Bible says Moses led the Israelites circa 1450 BC. We know the exact dynasty of that period. Your problem is, going forward or backward 300, 400 years---actually you pick the number of years---there is absolutely no evidence in Egypt--their hieroglyphics, their writings, their artifacts, nada--that 3 million Israelites ever occupied Egypt in that timeframe and more, left Egypt in such a mass exodus. Such an event would have crashed the Egyptian society, yet all their historic records show business as usual through this 700-800 period 400 years either side of 1450 BC.
Three million slaves walked out of Egypt as free people, and Pharaoh ended up looking like a fool. Ya think he would gladly want that listed in the history books? Makes sense to me that he would demand that any mention of the cursed Israelites in their chroniciles must be wiped out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post

Read the bolded, jeff. That's a Jewish professor of archeology and Ancient Near East Studies saying that. Are you going to argue with him? Are you going to actually say to him, "You're wrong, Professor Herzog, because my Bible says Moses led 3 million Israelites out of Egypt and parted the Red Sea to help them escape." Why, you'd be laughed out of the room, if not the country.

Herzog is just one guy with one opinion. And he has critics. He has been called anti-Israel. But isn't it funny that you gleefully trot out his findings (or lack rather) whenever it supports your position. But when archaeology DOES prove the Bible which it has many many times, oh then comparisons to Troy and Spiderman are made and I'm told that archaeology pretty much proves nothing. This demonstrates that your side has too much bias to make fair judgements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post


Read the bolded again very carefully, jeff. That's what's called proof by historians and archeologists that no exodus ever occurred the way the Bible describes. Stack that against an account that reads more like myth and fable than true history with talking bushes and rods turning into snakes and rivers turning to blood. You really can't recognize mythology when you see it, can you. But hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just repeating what trained experts with PhD's in the field are saying.
The Bible reads like a history book with detailed accounts and genealogies. It's not myth.
 
Old 11-09-2014, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
<snip>
This is like shooting ducks in a barrel. We know that the Bible says Moses led the Israelites circa 1450 BC. We know the exact dynasty of that period. Your problem is, going forward or backward 300, 400 years---actually you pick the number of years---there is absolutely no evidence in Egypt--their hieroglyphics, their writings, their artifacts, nada--that 3 million Israelites ever occupied Egypt in that timeframe and more, left Egypt in such a mass exodus. Such an event would have crashed the Egyptian society, yet all their historic records show business as usual through this 700-800 period 400 years either side of 1450 BC.

Read the bolded, jeff. That's a Jewish professor of archeology and Ancient Near East Studies saying that. Are you going to argue with him? Are you going to actually say to him, "You're wrong, Professor Herzog, because my Bible says Moses led 3 million Israelites out of Egypt and parted the Red Sea to help them escape." Why, you'd be laughed out of the room, if not the country.
<snip>
Of course the authors of the Bible overstated the number of Hebrew slaves leaving Egypt. I do believe there was a relatively small group of Hebrews leaving--as evidenced by the fact that the Bible says there were only TWO midwives for the entire group.

Quote:
Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah.
Exodus 1:15

But exaggeration was common by ancient writers. They had little to no ability to estimate even relatively small numbers--in the low thousands. Consider the estimates of the Persian invasion of Greece by Herodotus. His actual estimate with baggage train, support units, women and children is well over FIVE MILLION!! That's simply ridiculous.

The numbers of troops that Xerxes mustered for the second invasion of Greece have been the subject of endless dispute, because the numbers given in ancient sources are very large indeed. Herodotus claimed that there were, in total, 2.5 million military personnel, accompanied by an equivalent number of support personnel.The poet Simonides, who was a contemporary, talks of four million; Ctesias, based on Persian records, gave 800,000 as the total number of the army (without the support personnel) that was assembled by Xerxes. While it has been suggested that Herodotus or his sources had access to official Persian Empire records of the forces involved in the expedition, modern scholars tend to reject these figures based on knowledge of the Persian military systems, their logistical capabilities, the Greek countryside, and supplies available along the army's route. Modern scholars thus generally attribute the numbers given in the ancient sources to the result of miscalculations or exaggerations on the part of the victors, or disinformation by the Persians in the run up to the war. The topic has been hotly debated but the modern consensus revolves around the figure of 300–500,000.
Second Persian invasion of Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the upper end of that modern estimate seems quite high. And half of those would have been "support," the other half the military portion of such a large undertaking.

If, as is most likely, a small number of people left Egypt to lead a generation of nomadic existence, then there would probably not be any artifact evidence. The event itself is probably true, the details most likely got embellished or forgotten through a couple centuries of retelling before they were recorded.

While significant portions of the story told in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were never intended to be historiographic, the overall intent was historical according to the understanding of the ancient writers: to demonstrate God's actions in history, to recall Israel's bondage and salvation, and to demonstrate the fulfillment of Israel's covenant.

Most modern Bible scholars believe the Torah was put in a written record some time after the Exile, but that oral and perhaps fragmentary written traditions had been going around for centuries prior. There is evidence of possible military destruction around archaeological sites of Hazor, Lachish, and Megiddo that date to around 1250-1145 BCE, the time frame in which the Israelites left Egypt, and could have been their attempts to conquer land for themselves. But equally telling is the lack of any destruction or transition layers around Jericho.

Greek author Hecataeus of Abdera somewhere between 500 and 300 BCE gives a version of the Exodus in which the king of Egypt EXPELS all foreigners because of a plague that came upon Egypt, whereupon Moses took them to Palestine. This latter version gives a different look at the possibility that a plague or plagues really did lead up to the expulsion of everyone including Jewish slaves.

Here is a quote from his work (and he is not a friend of the Jews)

Quote:
When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the common people ascribed their troubles to the workings of a divine agency; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practising different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse. Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and for his courage. On taking possession of the land he founded, beside other cities, one that is now the most renowned of all, called Jerusalem. In addition he established the temple that they hold in chief veneration, instituted their forms of worship and ritual, drew up their laws and ordered their political institutions. He also divided them into twelve tribes, since this is regarded as the most perfect number and corresponds to the number of months that make up a year. But he had no images whatsoever of the gods made for them, being of the opinion that God is not in human form; rather the Heaven that surrounds the earth is alone divine, and rules the universe. The sacrifices that he established differ from those of other nations, as does their way of living, for as a result of their own expulsion from Egypt he introduced a kind of misanthropic and inhospitable way of life.
Hecataeus' excursus (apud Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica 40.3

So there is probably enough evidence to say there was an Exodus. Both Jews and Christians can view it in a spiritual light with no contradictions. When turning it into a history book, both faiths run into insurmountable problems. Post #185 is plain hooey.
 
Old 11-09-2014, 12:44 AM
 
2,621 posts, read 3,391,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
There is a pervasive, ever-increasing drumbeat of ‘false doctrine’ and outright heresy on this ‘Christian Forum!’ (Atheism, Gnosticism, Universalism, etc.). It often seem like non-Christians and/or Bible-rejecters and detractors are so persistently vocal here, that they sidetrack almost every thread and dominate the forum with their secular nonsense. (They are like the Ephesian mob that was so consumed with shouting about the greatness of Artemis and the goddess Diana, they were beyond hearing God’s truth or sound doctrine – Acts 19:21-41). Sadly, the shocking arrogance and ridicule of these self-proclaimed ‘liberal thinkers’ likely distracts some God-seekers from recognizing the empty human philosophies and lack of sound doctrine in their persistent shouts.

Christianity asserts that there is one source of Truth and that is the Bible, the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice (John 17:17;2 Timothy 3:15-17;Hebrews 4:12). It is God’s written revelation to mankind and is never superseded by man’s thoughts, ideas, writings, or visions. Nor did God reveal His plan and ways, so that arrogant men could approve the parts they like …and renounce the rest. The early Bereans, like the faithful today, “were more noble than ‘others’ in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). Christ Himself also consistently and repeatedly referenced and affirmed the Scriptures throughout His earthly ministry.

My question is: Do enough faithful Christians (or at least true seekers) remain on this ‘Christian Forum’, to make continuing to lift-up the truth here worthwhile?’ … Or has this Forum become so overwhelmed by a large mob of shouters, that very few remain who are still willing to endure (or even hear) sound Bible doctrine? If the latter is the case, it is probably time for me (as have many other committed, Christ-seeking, Bible-believing Christians before me) … to move on.

FIRST, let me state outfront that I am not here (in the Christianity Forum) to engage in proselytizing. I am only responding and contributing here because of the specific issue(s) that you addressed and offer up the viewpoint of one non-Christian (yet one who himself used to be a Christian of the conservative mold). As to the points you brought up:

Well likewise (to what you have stated), I have seen a goodly number of Christians of varying types and stripes on the "Atheism and Agnosticism" Forum ever since I started viewing that forum a number of years back (as well as religionists and spiritualists of varied types other than Christians involving themselves in the "Atheism and Agnosticism" Forum) and that applies to this very day. And, according to your own mandated Christian doctrine (of which I am wholly familiar with), it is your given commandment to "make believers of all nations" and to speak to non-Christians as though there is something wrong or amiss with them and that they are "lost souls" who need to be "saved" or else they will, in your words, incur an outcome of eternal damnation . . . so it is reasonable to say that this stance that persons of your way-of-thinking take with those who are not of your way-of-thinking comes across as a form of mockery and condescension in its own right (like all the rest of us are just "lost souls" to you and misguided persons and those of your stripe convey that you feel you have faculties and powers of perception that the rest of us don't have). And also, it is a fact that so many who are representative of your type of thinking work hard and continually at trying to turn our nation (assuming our nation to be the USA) into some form of a theocracy. I, on the other hand, am not trying to turn our nation into a nation of all atheists/agnostics/freethinkers. I don't feel that that is my right or prerogative. You own your own brains and souls are entitled to do as you deem fit with your brains and souls (as long as it does not cause measurable harm to others or to society-at-large).

So then, after all the above that I have stated is known to be and is undeniably true (about what is the "Christian agenda" or at least the conservative or fundamentalist "Christian agenda"), then you expect there to be no blowback at all to this agenda? If your religion was just something that you kept among yourselves as your personal practices and subscribed beliefs, who would else really care? It would be like me caring that you spend your days playing sports and video games or eating lots of ice cream. Who cares? That is your prerogative and right to spend your time as you deem fit and to subscribe to whatever ideas and practices bring meaning and purpose to your lives (as long as it is not impinging on or definitively harming others). But when you look to spend your lives jamming your agenda down everyone else's throats and up everyone else's rear ends and trying to institute a marriage of church and state across all levels of our society, then it DOES impact and impinge upon the rest of us and therefore it should be expected that there will, sooner or later, be blowback. And, amongst some, their blowback may not always come across as wholly civil and light-hearted.

By the way (as I alluded to earlier), I myself was raised to be a religious Jew and, for a host of years in my adult life, was a Protestant conservative evangelical born-again Christian who was also deemed by others to be a rather capable preacher/teacher/apologist for the Christian faith . . . and I'm in my senior years now. So, in my own case, you are not addressing a wholesale outsider to a life of faith here. I was one of you and, during those years, I rather welcomed challenges of all types to my Christianity. I wasn't wary of challenges or alternate views or even mockery. In contrast, by what you say, I pick up what might be deemed a fearfulness on your part of what you call "mockery", as though your ideas are so sacred and immune from challenge . . . like you are afraid that they wonn't be able to stand up to alternate views and challenges (like they might instead fall to pieces).

This applies to ALL of us of any stripe or persuasion: Realize that any views that can't stand up to challenges of any type and remain intact and viable as ideas still worth holding on to are not worth the paper they are written on. My own views and ideas are not and will never be "sacred". They are merely ideas and are open to change if the other ideas offered up to take their place have intellectual soundness and integrity. They are not "revealed truths" that are immutable but are instead potentially open to reevaluation and change if called for. THAT is the very essence and definition of intellectual honesty. Why would anyone want to be otherwise, unless they are not true truth seekers? I consider myself to be what I will call a "TRUE truth seeker" . .. one who doesn't look to "create" his own truth or to simply swallow the purported truth(s) passed on by others but rather to aim to discover "the truth" on its own terms (regardless of how pleasing or less-than-pleasing or even displeasing that truth is to me personally). If it is "the truth", then it is "the truth". It may or may not not actually be what we'd expect it to be or what some others tell us it should be.

Hopefully I have provided you worthy "food for thought" to reflect upon, for what it is worth.

Last edited by UsAll; 11-09-2014 at 01:33 AM..
 
Old 11-09-2014, 06:11 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,593 posts, read 15,532,511 times
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Let's all remember that the topic of this thread is "Has this become the 'Christian forum' in name only?"

In order to answer that question, you'll first have to determine what this forum is, and then what it was. Only then can you determine what it has become.

Go do your own research. Don't take my word for it. This forum was created on September 6, 2007. Prior to that time, there was a discussion thread in the "About the Forum" section about creating one, what it should be called, what the purpose would be, who could/should post there, etc.

There are also some interesting threads in the first 200-300 threads ever posting in this forum where discussions took place about the purpose and direction that this forum should take. There are even some familiar names posting in those threads.

Go take a look and see how you think this forum has changed since its inception.
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:00 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,875,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Let's all remember that the topic of this thread is "Has this become the 'Christian forum' in name only?"

In order to answer that question, you'll first have to determine what this forum is, and then what it was. Only then can you determine what it has become.

Go do your own research. Don't take my word for it. This forum was created on September 6, 2007. Prior to that time, there was a discussion thread in the "About the Forum" section about creating one, what it should be called, what the purpose would be, who could/should post there, etc.

There are also some interesting threads in the first 200-300 threads ever posting in this forum where discussions took place about the purpose and direction that this forum should take. There are even some familiar names posting in those threads.

Go take a look and see how you think this forum has changed since its inception.
Don't tell me, dare I use the word, it evolved?
 
Old 11-09-2014, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,863 posts, read 10,253,113 times
Reputation: 2291
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Let's all remember that the topic of this thread is "Has this become the 'Christian forum' in name only?"

In order to answer that question, you'll first have to determine what this forum is, and then what it was. Only then can you determine what it has become.

Go do your own research. Don't take my word for it. This forum was created on September 6, 2007. Prior to that time, there was a discussion thread in the "About the Forum" section about creating one, what it should be called, what the purpose would be, who could/should post there, etc.

There are also some interesting threads in the first 200-300 threads ever posting in this forum where discussions took place about the purpose and direction that this forum should take. There are even some familiar names posting in those threads.

Go take a look and see how you think this forum has changed since its inception.

The Most logical debate point I have ever seen!

LoL, who could possibly argue with this?

But please, you have already proved yourself to be correct, please continue, wouldn't take much.

I am interested now.

A man that knows.

Spill it.
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