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Revelation makes it plain that it is wrongdoers who go into the lake of fie. NOT EVERYONE. And it does not sound the least bit metaphorical.
The reward of the righteous is repeatedly referred to throughout the NT as ‘life’. Here the unrighteous get ‘the second death’. Obviously it is NOT EVERYONE who goes into the lake of fire. And burning sulfur does not sound very metaphorical.
And let us not forget the terrible trio, the beast, the false prophet and the devil.
Does the Holy Spirit purify them too? Via metaphorically tormenting them with metaphorical burning sulfur? Let us ask Matthew whether everyone goes into the (metaphorical) fire.
It is pretty clear that Matthew thinks the righteous get rewarded and the unrighteous get punished. How do they get punished? Fire. Not metaphorical at all. Completely compatible with a straightforward reading of Revelation.
Now let’s compare this with your quote
This comes from Psalm 104
First of all, being a flame is a lot different from being thrown into burning sulfur. Right off we see a problem with the applicability of this verse.
It says the Lord will make his angels spirits. That is, angels were created as spirits, not material beings. Were his ‘ministers’ created as ‘a flaming fire’? Who are his ministers, anyway? Not everyone to be sure. Unless you want to make the unrighteous into ministers of the Lord. Can even all of the righteous be called ministers of the Lord?
Let’s get another opinion.
The ministers are angels, not people. If we look at all of Hebrews 1 we see that it is all about Jesus being superior to angels. It is all about angels!
The last verse of Hebrews even ties ‘ministers’ to ‘angels’.
Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Hebrews 1:7 does not support universalism. Even with a strained and out of context interpretation, it is blown away by Revelation. Universal reconciliation is wishful thinking in search of ‘proof’ texts and coming up empty. As I have said before, you can believe anything you want. But universalism is simply not scriptural.
Altthinker, the flames are the righteous. The false prophet and the beast are manifestation of spiritual signifiance that are destroyed utterly by the Holy Spirit of God.
So in the middle of talking extensively about how Jesus is superior to angels, Hebrews 1 suddenly and very briefly mentions people for no apparent purpose other than to introduce a major theological concept in a highly obscure fashion, thereby rendering a whole lot of what appears to be very literal and non-metaphorical parts of the NT inoperative. And without resolving the resulting puzzle of why those parts very explicitly separate people into two groups, the righteous and the unrighteous. It is the unrighteous who apparently get flamed, whereas your interpretation of Hebrews 1 has it that the righteous are the ones who get flamed.
Sorry, it is not working.
Altthinker, do you believe that sinners go to Hell where they are eternall tormented?
If so, isn't that nothing more than a relocation plan for SIN? What does SIN care if its subjects are tormented for the rest of eternity? Additionally, this would mean that Jesus failed to eradicate sin if that were true and you would a conflict with the very purpose for which Jesus came.
Altthinker, do you believe that sinners go to Hell where they are eternall tormented?
If so, isn't that nothing more than a relocation plan for SIN? What does SIN care if its subjects are tormented for the rest of eternity? Additionally, this would mean that Jesus failed to eradicate sin if that were true and you would a conflict with the very purpose for which Jesus came.
I it also implies that the work of Adam was greater than Jesus' work. Because death was imputed to every human (save Jesus) who came after Adam. Whether you were aborted or it took 100 years everybody died. But we have a new inheritance with Jesus.
I it also implies that the work of Adam was greater than Jesus' work. Because death was imputed to every human (save Jesus) who came after Adam. Whether you were aborted or it took 100 years everybody died. But we have a new inheritance with Jesus.
Altthinker, do you believe that sinners go to Hell where they are eternall tormented?
If so, isn't that nothing more than a relocation plan for SIN? What does SIN care if its subjects are tormented for the rest of eternity? Additionally, this would mean that Jesus failed to eradicate sin if that were true and you would a conflict with the very purpose for which Jesus came.
I am addressing what scripture says and what it was clearly intended to mean.
For Jesus to eradicate SIN, he would have to go back in time and prevent the serpent from talking to Eve. Plenty of sin took place before he came, while he was here and after he left. I imagine that state of affairs will continue for awhile. Giving sinners a free pass into the new Jerusalem does not eradicate sin. It rewards it.
Please explain exactly what you think happens at the end of days, beginning with the white throne judgment in Revelation 20. There are those whose names are written in the book of life and those who are not. What happens then? Please justify any differences from a straightforward reading of Revelation with clearly relevant scriptural references. Thank you.
I am addressing what scripture says and what it was clearly intended to mean.
For Jesus to eradicate SIN, he would have to go back in time and prevent the serpent from talking to Eve. Plenty of sin took place before he came, while he was here and after he left. I imagine that state of affairs will continue for awhile. Giving sinners a free pass into the new Jerusalem does not eradicate sin. It rewards it.
Please explain exactly what you think happens at the end of days, beginning with the white throne judgment in Revelation 20. There are those whose names are written in the book of life and those who are not. What happens then? Please justify any differences from a straightforward reading of Revelation with clearly relevant scriptural references. Thank you.
Or the Bible could just say He is going to eradicate sin. Which it does:
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Yes, I agree. God, who created all souls, knows exactly how to deliver each one from sin, and create each one new. I believe that this passage in 1 Peter 4 goes along with this.
"Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.."
Do you agree Trumpethim and trettep? God bless.
Yes, Shana, I believe and agree with this.
It is interesting that this version you have used, also brings out the fact that the Gospel has been preached even to the dead, which shows that God sees us on a timeless Spiritual level, and the fact that even if we may be physically dead, it does not hinder the efforts of God to teach us. When we continue to try to analyze things with our fleshly minds instead of our spiritual mind, we fail to comprehend even a small portion of the infinity of God. Physical death is not a final barrier to us for salvation. We tend to think this way because we can't see the other side, and it also shows how much we think that the responsibililty of spreading the Good News is with men. The Bible continuously tells us that we can't achieve salvation on our own, that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, (John 14:6), and all those that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, (John 6:37), and that the Lord is willing that NONE should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). If These scriptures are true, then it is GOD Who controls who comes to Jesus, and His will is for ALL to come. Can Jesus do this in the physical lifetimes of all of humanity? This has been proven throughout time. Of course not! This can only mean that God reserves the right to intervene in the lives of men, whether alive OR dead.
When Christians think in terms of an eventual eternal torment, they are saying that God can't fix men, and they are placing God on a level even with mankind. They are saying that the sin of Adam was not taken care of by Jesus' death, and that the sacrifice of Jesus was finite in its ability to eradicate sin! They are saying that Satan is at least 10 times stronger than God, and that the will of men is also stronger than the will of God. Yet, when we look at these things through the mind of the flesh, they seem to be perfectly logical conclusions. But the Spirit says differently.
The normal Christian also has great difficulty and doesn't realize the size of the moral club that is used against them. They look at sin as something to be avoided, and avoiding it can bring a form of righteousness. They fail to recognize that through this method of erradicating sin, the flesh glories in itself, yet the flesh is doomed to destruction. It is also a fear that by accepting the fact that Jesus will eventually save all, they think that this is a license to sin. But actually, the only way to be righteous is to give up on your flesh and live in the Spirit. And in that way, sin has no hold on us, and we don't sin. The sinful desires that people are afraid of, are the sins of the flesh. If you live in the Spirit , as it says in Galatians 5:16, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh!
It is interesting that this version you have used, also brings out the fact that the Gospel has been preached even to the dead, which shows that God sees us on a timeless Spiritual level, and the fact that even if we may be physically dead, it does not hinder the efforts of God to teach us. When we continue to try to analyze things with our fleshly minds instead of our spiritual mind, we fail to comprehend even a small portion of the infinity of God. Physical death is not a final barrier to us for salvation. We tend to think this way because we can't see the other side, and it also shows how much we think that the responsibililty of spreading the Good News is with men. The Bible continuously tells us that we can't achieve salvation on our own, that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, (John 14:6), and all those that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, (John 6:37), and that the Lord is willing that NONE should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). If These scriptures are true, then it is GOD Who controls who comes to Jesus, and His will is for ALL to come. Can Jesus do this in the physical lifetimes of all of humanity? This has been proven throughout time. Of course not! This can only mean that God reserves the right to intervene in the lives of men, whether alive OR dead.
When Christians think in terms of an eventual eternal torment, they are saying that God can't fix men, and they are placing God on a level even with mankind. They are saying that the sin of Adam was not taken care of by Jesus' death, and that the sacrifice of Jesus was finite in its ability to eradicate sin! They are saying that Satan is at least 10 times stronger than God, and that the will of men is also stronger than the will of God. Yet, when we look at these things through the mind of the flesh, they seem to be perfectly logical conclusions. But the Spirit says differently.
The normal Christian also has great difficulty and doesn't realize the size of the moral club that is used against them. They look at sin as something to be avoided, and avoiding it can bring a form of righteousness. They fail to recognize that through this method of erradicating sin, the flesh glories in itself, yet the flesh is doomed to destruction. It is also a fear that by accepting the fact that Jesus will eventually save all, they think that this is a license to sin. But actually, the only way to be righteous is to give up on your flesh and live in the Spirit. And in that way, sin has no hold on us, and we don't sin. The sinful desires that people are afraid of, are the sins of the flesh. If you live in the Spirit , as it says in Galatians 5:16, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh!
I like how you talk.
We are two, and one of us needs to die right?
If God has given power to his two witnesses, hasn't he given power to both?
Wouldn't the prophet of flesh go around prophesying hail, fire, and brimstone until the whole body realized that power was given to both and one needs to die?
It is interesting that this version you have used, also brings out the fact that the Gospel has been preached even to the dead, which shows that God sees us on a timeless Spiritual level, and the fact that even if we may be physically dead, it does not hinder the efforts of God to teach us. When we continue to try to analyze things with our fleshly minds instead of our spiritual mind, we fail to comprehend even a small portion of the infinity of God. Physical death is not a final barrier to us for salvation. We tend to think this way because we can't see the other side, and it also shows how much we think that the responsibililty of spreading the Good News is with men. The Bible continuously tells us that we can't achieve salvation on our own, that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, (John 14:6), and all those that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, (John 6:37), and that the Lord is willing that NONE should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). If These scriptures are true, then it is GOD Who controls who comes to Jesus, and His will is for ALL to come. Can Jesus do this in the physical lifetimes of all of humanity? This has been proven throughout time. Of course not! This can only mean that God reserves the right to intervene in the lives of men, whether alive OR dead.
When Christians think in terms of an eventual eternal torment, they are saying that God can't fix men, and they are placing God on a level even with mankind. They are saying that the sin of Adam was not taken care of by Jesus' death, and that the sacrifice of Jesus was finite in its ability to eradicate sin! They are saying that Satan is at least 10 times stronger than God, and that the will of men is also stronger than the will of God. Yet, when we look at these things through the mind of the flesh, they seem to be perfectly logical conclusions. But the Spirit says differently.
The normal Christian also has great difficulty and doesn't realize the size of the moral club that is used against them. They look at sin as something to be avoided, and avoiding it can bring a form of righteousness. They fail to recognize that through this method of erradicating sin, the flesh glories in itself, yet the flesh is doomed to destruction. It is also a fear that by accepting the fact that Jesus will eventually save all, they think that this is a license to sin. But actually, the only way to be righteous is to give up on your flesh and live in the Spirit. And in that way, sin has no hold on us, and we don't sin. The sinful desires that people are afraid of, are the sins of the flesh. If you live in the Spirit , as it says in Galatians 5:16, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh!
good post. I agree. This was a huge revelation for me. And it (in my mind) requires you to understand that God is sovereign. And that He has put it upon Himself to reconcile all of His creation. Otherwise it seems unfair. It does make sense in the context of the promise to Abraham where God made the oath Himself. The mosaic covenant put the onus on man to live by the laws of God. The Abrahamic covenant puts the onus on God. He swore unto Himself to see it done.
If God takes an oath upon His name, then I'm going to believe He can get it done. This is a great thing!
Or the Bible could just say He is going to eradicate sin. Which it does:
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
And the devil gets thrown into the lake of fire along with those who sinned and did not repent. Or did Jesus go back in a time machine and undo all those works?
Let's put 1 John 3 in context.
Quote:
1 John 3
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he [Jesus] appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
Again a separation into to classes: those who are with God and those who are not. To destroy the works of the devil is to bring people into the fold so that they stop sinning and are no longer children of the devil. Not a word about redeeming those who die in a sinful state without having repented. The unrighteous will join the devil in the lake of fire.
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