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Old 01-22-2015, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
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This topic came up in two separate threads, so I decided to move it to a new thread to avoid confusion.

My question is: is there fulfilled prophesy in the Book of Daniel? Specifically Daniel chapter 8?
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:51 PM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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The eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel deals with the prophecies concerning the rise of the Medo-Persian Empire [8:20], and then the rise of the Grecian Empire which defeated the Medo-Persian Empire [8:21], and then with the four kingdoms which came about after Alexander the Great died [8:22]. Some time after his death, his kingdom was divided among four of his generals. Historically these are believed to be Cassander who ruled over Macedonia and Greece; Lysimachus who ruled over Thrace, Bithynia, and most of Asia Minor; Seleucus who ruled over Syria and lands to the east; and Ptolemy who ruled over Egypt and perhaps Palestine and Arabia Petraea.

The prophecies of Daniel chapter 8 are detailed here. - https://www.christiancourier.com/art...book-of-daniel

The issue then becomes whether Daniel wrote these prophecies during the sixth century B.C while Babylon was still in power and the Southern Kingdom of Judah was in exile in Babylon, or whether the Book of Daniel was written after the fact around the time of the Maccabean revolt (167 to 160 BC.) as skeptics claim.

The primary reason that skeptics and liberal scholars believe that the Book of Daniel is not authentic but was written by a Maccabean Jew at a later date is because they do not believe in the possibility of predictive prophecy and therefore Daniel could not have known the details which are written in Daniel. In defense of their view for a late date, skeptics raise a number of arguments such as the placement of the Book of Daniel in the Hebrew Scriptures (Daniel is in the Writings instead of in the Prophets); the Book of Daniel is not mentioned in Jewish literature until about 140 BC., words borrowed from the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek languages are found in the Book of Daniel; the Book of Daniel is partially written in Aramaic which was spoken in the second century BC. but not during the time of Nebuchadnezzar; alleged historical inaccuracies; and issues pertaining to theology in the Book of Daniel.

But these arguments have been addressed by theologians and scholars. For instance, the issue of Greek words in the Book of Daniel is no problem since there were Greek mercenaries in Nebuchadnezzar's armies.
On expeditions in Syria and Palestine from June to December of 604, Nebuchadrezzar received the submission of local states, including Judah, and captured the city of Ashkelon. With Greek mercenaries in his armies, further campaigns to extend Babylonian control in Palestine followed in the three succeeding years.
The Chaldeans, Nebuchadnezzar
As well, there were Greek traders in Egypt and western Asia as early as the seventh century BC.

If the Book of Daniel had been written in the second century BC. there would have been many more Greek words than the few that appear.

The Persian words that are found in the Book are a non-issue since Daniel lived during the early years of the Persian Empire. And the Persian words are said to be of the Old Persian language in contrast with Middle and New Persian. Old Persian had evolved into Middle Persian by around 300 B.C. This then argues against a late date for Daniel. The language issue is no issue at all.


For more on the language and other issues that skeptics raise, I will provide links so that I don't have to spend a lot of time on this.

http://www.auss.info/auss_publicatio...nal=1&type=pdf

http://www.biblicalreader.com/Wilson...PTR%2013.3.pdf

The Date of the Book of Daniel

Daniel Defended : 2.4 - Date

https://bible.org/article/introduction-book-daniel

So skeptics, take from the studies above what you can.

For believers in the Lord Jesus Christ it is sufficient that Jesus verified that the Book of Daniel is authentic.
Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16] then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
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Interesting stuff. I wish I was a scholar of ancient literature and history so that I could competently study the issue.

Let's say Daniel accurately predicted the future. How does that prove the supernatural claims of Christianity? Daniel doesn't say anything about Jesus. If Daniel is a bona fide prophet of the God of the Jews, shouldn't I become Jewish rather than Christian?
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:53 PM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting stuff. I wish I was a scholar of ancient literature and history so that I could competently study the issue.

Let's say Daniel accurately predicted the future. How does that prove the supernatural claims of Christianity? Daniel doesn't say anything about Jesus. If Daniel is a bona fide prophet of the God of the Jews, shouldn't I become Jewish rather than Christian?
Actually, Daniel was given a vision of the Messiah, who we know as Jesus (Daniel didn't know Him by that name), which is recorded in Daniel chapter 7.
Dan. 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14] "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
The Ancient of Days is a reference to God the Father. The One like a Son of Man is a reference to the Messiah. Jesus' frequently referred to Himself as the Son of Man, and took that title from Daniel 7:13. In the vision Daniel saw Jesus being given dominion over the nations of the world, and given a kingdom. This will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. There many passages in the Old Testament which refer to Christ's Messianic reign.

In this dispensation anyone who receives Christ as Savior, whether Jew or Gentile, is a Christian. During the Church-Age Jewish and Gentile believers are one body in Christ.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Last edited by Michael Way; 01-22-2015 at 04:09 PM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting stuff. I wish I was a scholar of ancient literature and history so that I could competently study the issue.

Let's say Daniel accurately predicted the future. How does that prove the supernatural claims of Christianity? Daniel doesn't say anything about Jesus. If Daniel is a bona fide prophet of the God of the Jews, shouldn't I become Jewish rather than Christian?

The Jewish have been cut off from being Gods chosen--Matt 23:37-38--Matt 21:43--- as well the renting of the banner at the moment Jesus died as well confirmed they were cut off----- As you see at Matt 21--it was given to a new group( spiritual Israel)= israelite' who came to the light( Jesus) and gentiles as well)
The reference to Israel in Revelation- is spiritual Israel--carrying the biblical meaning-Gods chosen. --Jesus started a new religion( The way) it died out after the apostles were murdered and then the Christians were hunted down and captured and all thrown to wild animals in the collosium while the crowds cheered. Not until these last days did truth come back-Daniel 12:4)-- the great apostasy arose first( Catholicism councils( tree trunk) then branches popped up--a single bible teaching shows the reality--- a good tree produces good fruit--a rotten tree produces rotten fruit.
The new religion served the God of Israel--a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah) and accept Jesus as the Messiah.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:07 PM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
The Jewish have been cut off from being Gods chosen--Matt 23:37-38--Matt 21:43--- as well the renting of the banner at the moment Jesus died as well confirmed they were cut off----- As you see at Matt 21--it was given to a new group( spiritual Israel)= israelite' who came to the light( Jesus) and gentiles as well)
The reference to Israel in Revelation- is spiritual Israel--carrying the biblical meaning-Gods chosen. --Jesus started a new religion( The way) it died out after the apostles were murdered and then the Christians were hunted down and captured and all thrown to wild animals in the collosium while the crowds cheered. Not until these last days did truth come back-Daniel 12:4)-- the great apostasy arose first( Catholicism councils( tree trunk) then branches popped up--a single bible teaching shows the reality--- a good tree produces good fruit--a rotten tree produces rotten fruit.
The new religion served the God of Israel--a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah) and accept Jesus as the Messiah.
The Jews have only temporarily been set aside until the time of the Gentiles has come in at the Second coming of Christ. At that time, the promises that God made to Abraham concerning the Abrahamic, Land, and Davidic covenants, and the New Covenant to Israel will be fulfilled. The Church is not spiritual Israel. The Church and Israel are two separate people(s).

However, that is not the topic of this thread.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Actually, Daniel was given a vision of the Messiah, who we know as Jesus (Daniel didn't know Him by that name), which is recorded in Daniel chapter 7.
Dan. 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14] "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
The Ancient of Days is a reference to God the Father. The One like a Son of Man is a reference to the Messiah. Jesus' frequently referred to Himself as the Son of Man, and took that title from Daniel 7:13. In the vision Daniel saw Jesus being given dominion over the nations of the world, and given a kingdom. This will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. There many passages in the Old Testament which refer to Christ's Messianic reign.

In this dispensation anyone who receives Christ as Savior, whether Jew or Gentile, is a Christian. During the Church-age Jewish and Gentile believers are one body in Christ.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
The first Christians were Jews. They would have interpreted the Jewish writings as "obviously" referring to their spiritual leader, Jesus. They would have incorporated some of the same symbolism and language from the Jewish scriptures when writing the Gospels, etc. Not too hard to figure out, really.

Ever see that Monty Python movie "Life of Brian"?

Obviously most of the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the promised one to deliver Israel from bondage. The Christians reinterpreted "bondage" to mean a kind of "spiritual bondage" under Satan.

New religious movements reinterpret existing religious writings all the time. You can see it right now as "liberal" Christians reinterpret the bible to support their religious views. They see the conservative Christians in the same way that the first Christians saw the Jewish scribes and Pharisees: old fuddy duddies that couldn't understand that God was doing a new thing.
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:22 PM
 
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Well, I prophesy that after the seleucids, will come Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Ottoman and British domination before the land is restored to Israeli rule. Does that make me a better prophet than Daniel for naming more? Or is it just a case ot it being easier to prophesy post hoc?
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:51 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 14,794,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting stuff. I wish I was a scholar of ancient literature and history so that I could competently study the issue.

Let's say Daniel accurately predicted the future. How does that prove the supernatural claims of Christianity? Daniel doesn't say anything about Jesus. If Daniel is a bona fide prophet of the God of the Jews, shouldn't I become Jewish rather than Christian?
He did speak of Christ:

Dan 9:23-26 At the start of your supplications a word from Yahweh fared forth, and I come to tell you, for
a man of coveted qualities are you. "Then understand what is in the word and understand what is in the
sight." (24) Seventy sevens are segregated for your people and for your holy city:To detain
transgression, to cause sin to end, to make a propitiatory shelter for depravity; to bring the righteousness
of the eons, to seal the vision and the prophet, to anoint the holy of holies." (25) And you shall know and
be intelligent:From the faring forth of the word to cause a return and to rebuild Jerusalem--from then till
Messiah the Governor is seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens. It will return and will be rebuilt, square and
salient, even in eras of constraint." (26) After the sixty-two sevens, Messiah will be cut off, and there is
no adjudication for Him. The city and the holy place shall be laid in ruins with the other governor's coming;
then its end is by an overflow, and till the end of the war desolations will be decided."

The Messiah did come at the time given in the prophecy. He was cut off by crucifixion. Jerusalem and the holy place were destroyed in 70 A.D.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
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Those verses are so ambiguous that they could mean anything. If you want to see those passages as referring to Jesus, you will see them as referring to Jesus.
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