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There are many different views of hell and its implications. This is the second of a series of threads I will be setting up on the following topics:
1. The history of the afterlife in the Old and New Testaments: Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades.
2. God's sovereignty, human free will, and hell
3. The Gospels' teachings on the afterlife
4. The apostles' writings on the afterlife
5. Final judgment and the prophets
What does it mean that God is sovereign?
Do human's have libertarian free will (LFW - absolutely nothing affects a person's ability to choose their own path), compatibilist free will (CFW - God created each person with certain dispositions which determines what choices they would make - predestination), or basic free will (CFW except in occasions in which God allows LFW)?
How does this effect any notion of hell?
I used to be on a forum where the arguments about free will vs. God's sovereignty and election got so heated and went on for months and hundreds of pages until finally the topic was banned outright. Just saying - I've seen this discussed and fought over. It doesn't matter to me what others believe about free will. I know what I believe, but that doesn't matter much either. I think the reason why people fight over this so much is because they are naturally outraged by the traditional or orthodox teaching of literal eternal hell fire.
We have limited free will... meaning that most of the time we are allowed to live and make our own choices, but the Lord can break in at any time and run things.
We have limited free will... meaning that most of the time we are allowed to live and make our own choices, but the Lord can break in at any time and run things.
That is exactly what I have thought for years, but then I started thinking about how God created us. God placed us exactly where and when he wants us to be. He created our genetic make-up, which does make us susceptible to certain things - a nature versus nurture situation. Some people are more likely to become alcoholics than others. That doesn't mean that they will be alcoholics, or that they don't have a choice in the matter, but God created in them a disposition towards that temptation, right?
I know we do have free will, and I know that God loves every person, is perfectly good, and has complete sovereignty. But how do they all come together?
That is exactly what I have thought for years, but then I started thinking about how God created us. God placed us exactly where and when he wants us to be. He created our genetic make-up, which does make us susceptible to certain things - a nature versus nurture situation. Some people are more likely to become alcoholics than others. That doesn't mean that they will be alcoholics, or that they don't have a choice in the matter, but God created in them a disposition towards that temptation, right?
I know we do have free will, and I know that God loves every person, is perfectly good, and has complete sovereignty. But how do they all come together?
As far as free will goes, everyone has within them a Yetzer HaRa and a Yetzer Tov, meaning a bad inclination and a good inclination and it is our responsibility as to which we follow...Doing Mitzvot or practicing righteousness every day eventually becomes second nature and becomes who you are...Same with the Yetzer HaRa, if one follows the Yetzer HaRa, then it eventually becomes second nature and becomes who you are...
Just think, if we as people and God's creation,just left hell to our own personal definition life might be so much nicer. Hell is a concept we humans seem to spend way too much time on and it never fully gets settled.
WHO CARES..
IF there is a hell, those who qualify will; get to live it. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHAT THE QUALIFICATIONS ARE..yet we argue.
If there is NOT a hell, I suppose we will find out. SO the whole stupid argument is stupid.
I really believe the only reason some will argue and fight for the existence of hell is to influence others to think like they do or to exert control over popular dogma. It's just another version of my faith is better than your faith war. Just another wedge to divide us.
So what if I paint my house purple and they want to paint their house an off white? Why would they want to make m paint my house off white? Why do they hate purple?
Christianity has been taken over by a bunch of CHURCH OWNERS ASSOCIATIONS, like these HOA's, each of which want to impose their own theological standards.
I myself tend to think those who unify and celebrate life are who I want to associate with. Others may want to hang out with those who have the divide and convert (if converting is not an option then they will conquer).
What ever in your method, cant't the others be left alone and spared the proselytizing?
We have limited free will... meaning that most of the time we are allowed to live and make our own choices, but the Lord can break in at any time and run things.
Seriously? So like we are "sleeper" agents just waiting to be activated? What kind of cruel game do we think this ALL LOVING GOD is playing? He may influence the environment in which we live, but to think he can initiate mind control is too much like a Harrison Burgeon scenario.
Just think, if we as people and God's creation,just left hell to our own personal definition life might be so much nicer. Hell is a concept we humans seem to spend way too much time on and it never fully gets settled.
WHO CARES..
IF there is a hell, those who qualify will; get to live it. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHAT THE QUALIFICATIONS ARE..yet we argue.
If there is NOT a hell, I suppose we will find out. SO the whole stupid argument is stupid.
I really believe the only reason some will argue and fight for the existence of hell is to influence others to think like they do or to exert control over popular dogma. It's just another version of my faith is better than your faith war. Just another wedge to divide us.
So what if I paint my house purple and they want to paint their house an off white? Why would they want to make m paint my house off white? Why do they hate purple?
Christianity has been taken over by a bunch of CHURCH OWNERS ASSOCIATIONS, like these HOA's, each of which want to impose their own theological standards.
I myself tend to think those who unify and celebrate life are who I want to associate with. Others may want to hang out with those who have the divide and convert (if converting is not an option then they will conquer).
What ever in your method, cant't the others be left alone and spared the proselytizing?
I can fully understand your frustrations. In making this thread I do not mean to drive a wedge. It is simply that Christians are asked to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us. Part of that is heaven, and what we are saved from - hell (whatever you may believe it is). Quite a bit of the New Testament is dedicated to eschatology - should we ignore it?
I just finished a college course called The Problem of Evil and Suffering. In it my professors (there were two teaching the class) told us they taught the course so that when we come upon a time of suffering in our lives we will already have a foundation of faith and understanding to stand on. I seek understanding, and hope that others do as well. Many do not enjoy such discussions, see no need for them, and think they are not productive. I get that, but I do enjoy them, I do see a need for them, and I think they can be productive.
I can fully understand your frustrations. In making this thread I do not mean to drive a wedge. It is simply that Christians are asked to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us. Part of that is heaven, and what we are saved from - hell (whatever you may believe it is). Quite a bit of the New Testament is dedicated to eschatology - should we ignore it?
I just finished a college course called The Problem of Evil and Suffering. In it my professors (there were two teaching the class) told us they taught the course so that when we come upon a time of suffering in our lives we will already have a foundation of faith and understanding to stand on. I seek understanding, and hope that others do as well. Many do not enjoy such discussions, see no need for them, and think they are not productive. I get that, but I do enjoy them, I do see a need for them, and I think they can be productive.
Both are very good ideas. I applaud the discussion. But what always happens, as post # 2 points out, there are those who are not content with discussion--unless they are RIGHT and all others are WRONG.
Seems few are able to say this I believe because... and I accept your right to believe that because...
There is no problem if someone believes drinking coffee is a "sin." The problem is when they demand EVERYONE abstain from coffee because of their belief.
Same for abortion (both sides have support from the bible), homosexuality, equality marriage, slavery, etc..
Just because one finds evidence in the bible, isn't a license to compel others to accept this as fact.
Then the battle begins as to who is a christian and who isn't and who is a better christian than someone else and who has stronger faith than their neighbor...and on and on and on..
The discussions are great, and most important to those who truly believe and accept we have absolute free-will. (If we do not have free-will, I would love to hear how someone justifies evil that is found with pedophiles, rapists, murders, greed, and all the other anti-beatitudes behavior in this world).
I never did buy into the NEVER discuss religion,politics and in-laws at a dinner table. But I have always realized too many discussions end up with one side claiming superiority over the other.
My perception has more to do with the consequences of freedom/determination: if we do not have the capability to choose then we do not bear the responsibility and punishment is simply gratuitous cruelty.
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