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Agreed mystic. Evolution is how god did it if you believe in god. The rock record is god's hand writing if you believe he wrote something literally. I don't believe in god but those statments line up with observations.
no atheist in fox holes. It is a data point that tells us something. For me it addresses "hope". "hope" is an idea that I struggle with. I don't have it as much as others I guess. I also see this as an area that the atheist stance doesn't handle well either. I give a child "hope" at times it is needed. I don't understand it but I try to give it.
This thread is not about if evolution is true or not. It is not about if God did it or not. It is not about the rock record. It is about DNA, RNA and protein folding which caused Antony Flew to give up his Atheism and Darwinian evolution.
American College Dictionary says under deity:
1) a god or goddess
2) divine character or nature
3) the estate or rank of a god
4) the character or nature of the Supreme Being
5) the Deity, God
Under deist it says:
one who believes in deism
Under deism it says:
1) belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only......
2) belief in a God who created the world, but since remained indifferent to His creation
Under theism it says:
1) the belief in one God as the Creator and ruler of the universe......
2) the belief in the existence of a God or gods....
Seems as if both deist and theist are connected to having belief in a God.
That was a rather excellent reply Matthew 4:4.
What is important to note is Antony Flew was a world-renowned atheist and debunked creationism. His papers were held in highest esteem by those who believed in atheism and evolution. It was rather shocking to all of his supporters when he recanted atheism and evolution on the basis of scientific facts which swayed him to his final position.
This thread is not about if evolution is true or not. It is not about if God did it or not. It is not about the rock record. It is about DNA, RNA and protein folding which caused Antony Flew to give up his Atheism and Darwinian evolution.
err, it think the whole of the problem is people using reason and common sense to form a belief, or lack there of. And I only answered a post.
If you have read my post I often tell people to go learn proteins to see how "idea's" need modifying when it comes time to "physically" use them. When people really understand them, and the average person can do it, it sheds a light of light on things. They don't have to know the name of every protein or mechanism of formation, just how they work. We then become a bag of proteins doing what proteins do ... make stuff ,.. "CREATION".
"folding", is really shape and or structure. There is no magic, but it is complicated. The charge distribution in and around the formation of the protein gives it a secondary or tertiary shapes. We can't do it yet. I used to say in 89, when we get the tertiary shapes of proteins we will live for everrrrrr!!!!. errrr errr errr
Flew came to accept that the complexity and design in lifeforms (at least) meant that an intelligence had to have done it. In a way this shows in a practical way that atheists will change their mind if they are given convincing evidence. This is better that the Ken Hamm position that nothing - no evidence - would ever make him reconsider his faith -based position. And the not too long past thread on evolution showed that to be the mindset of Creationists in general. Give them hard evidence and they cover their eyes and say it isn't there, and if it is, they don't want to know.
This is very much in line with Behe's Irreducible complexity (I/D) argument and I had always thought that Flew was convinced by that. In any case, it turned out to be unsound as science (and this was decided in a court of law so you can all save yourself the trouble of denial) and whether Flew realized in the end he'd been mistaken if not fooled, I don't know.
So far as I can recall, this had no bearing on his view of evolution other than perhaps leaving room for God intervening in the evolutionary process. Flew merely accepted that the origins of life indicated a creator.
It made no difference to his religious beliefs. His Theism or perhaps deism, did not make him a Christian and he did not become one despite a couple of heavily edited videos trying (not very convincingly) to make it look as though he did.
So, I respect Flw's decision to accept ID, but I consider that he was fooled and the law (Dover trial) says so too. So argue with the law, not me.
And it does not do a darn thing to validate the Bible, JesusGod or Christianity. So apart from a possible attempt to make atheists wriggle uncomfortably (it does not - I am rather proud of Flew's integrity, though he allowed himself to be fooled) I don't know what was the point of the post at all.
The point of the post, AREQUIPA, is that Flew, after he considered all the facts concerning DNA, RNA and protein folding, and all the complex machinery even in a single cell, that these things could not have arisen by just chance, that there had to be an intelligence behind it all.
No, he did not become a Christian. But that is beside the point. He relinquished atheism and Darwinian evolution based on his findings. He was a very intelligent man and I'm sure he was not easily fooled. But being fooled can happen to the brightest of people.
It is my personal understanding that the extreme complexities of all living things could not have occurred by mere chance or accident and thus a Creator needed to be involved and thus it does seem to me to vindicate the Biblical stance that God created man and plants and animals sans evolution.
But the post is not to disprove evolution, though one can surely assume that is done through the back door
The point of the post, AREQUIPA, is that Flew, after he considered all the facts concerning DNA, RNA and protein folding, and all the complex machinery even in a single cell, that these things could not have arisen by just chance, that there had to be an intelligence behind it all.
No, he did not become a Christian. But that is beside the point. He relinquished atheism and Darwinian evolution based on his findings. He was a very intelligent man and I'm sure he was not easily fooled. But being fooled can happen to the brightest of people.
It is my personal understanding that the extreme complexities of all living things could not have occurred by mere chance or accident and thus a Creator needed to be involved and thus it does seem to me to vindicate the Biblical stance that God created man and plants and animals sans evolution.
But the post is not to disprove evolution, though one can surely assume that is done through the back door
Absolutely. The science of DNA is destroying the fable of evolution.
Every find of science supports ID. No true transition from-to anything has been found, EVERY find is complete and fully functional. Evolution is a faith with no real scientific support just assumptions made to fit their faith. Their prophets are scientists who want to believe in it and have no "inspiration" at all. They follow men not science.
I have asked and asked and no one has ever produced any evidence of cross kind evolution. Not one shred of scientifically supported evdience at all. Blind faith.
Notice how the first posts attacked the man. That is all they have.
This thread is not about if evolution is true or not. It is not about if God did it or not. It is not about the rock record. It is about DNA, RNA and protein folding which caused Antony Flew to give up his Atheism and Darwinian evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Your quote from Flew above does not say he continued to believe in Darwinian evolution. I showed he discontinued that belief due to the more recent discoveries in DNA, RNA and protein folding.
You have done no such thing. He never disputed evolution and you have zero evidence from the man himself that he did. He believed that evolution was so complex that a god of some sort had started it all.
Your continued refusal of the facts shows you are only looking for evidence to support your beliefs, you are not looking at what the evidence actually supports.
You have been told countless times on many threads about the difference between evolution and abiogenesis and you still seem to think they are the same thing. Why?
The point of the post, AREQUIPA, is that Flew, after he considered all the facts concerning DNA, RNA and protein folding, and all the complex machinery even in a single cell, that these things could not have arisen by just chance, that there had to be an intelligence behind it all.
No, he did not become a Christian. But that is beside the point. He relinquished atheism and Darwinian evolution based on his findings. He was a very intelligent man and I'm sure he was not easily fooled. But being fooled can happen to the brightest of people.
It is my personal understanding that the extreme complexities of all living things could not have occurred by mere chance or accident and thus a Creator needed to be involved and thus it does seem to me to vindicate the Biblical stance that God created man and plants and animals sans evolution.
But the post is not to disprove evolution, though one can surely assume that is done through the back door
not "by chance" is different then Omni god. I carved arg's "no nothing" up as easily as I did "omni- god" in 3rd grade.
This gets me to my big problem in this struggle between fundie atheist and militant religious people.
What do people in the middle do? Ones that aint sure. Or People that don't have agenda's? or those that were not screwed by a religous person so we don't have that Axe edge? Be like Neil? like Carl? But they at least have self confidence that I and some others don't have.
Absolutely. The science of DNA is destroying the fable of evolution.
Every find of science supports ID. No true transition from-to anything has been found, EVERY find is complete and fully functional. Evolution is a faith with no real scientific support just assumptions made to fit their faith. Their prophets are scientists who want to believe in it and have no "inspiration" at all. They follow men not science.
I have asked and asked and no one has ever produced any evidence of cross kind evolution. Not one shred of scientifically supported evdience at all. Blind faith.
Notice how the first posts attacked the man. That is all they have.
DNA would prove how great god is CA. A package of information is a super small volume. Its life.
Absolutely. The science of DNA is destroying the fable of evolution.
Every find of science supports ID. No true transition from-to anything has been found, EVERY find is complete and fully functional. Evolution is a faith with no real scientific support just assumptions made to fit their faith. Their prophets are scientists who want to believe in it and have no "inspiration" at all. They follow men not science.
I have asked and asked and no one has ever produced any evidence of cross kind evolution. Not one shred of scientifically supported evdience at all. Blind faith.
Notice how the first posts attacked the man. That is all they have.
All this post shows is that you have zero understanding of what evolution actually is and how it works.
Of course "every find is complete and fully functional". What else would you expect?
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A package of information is a super small volume. Its life.
