Question from my neighbor (sinners, Jesus Christ, Bible, Catholic)

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by ashleynj

I have to admit that this makes no sense to me. Why would one need the gospel to do good?

What people is she talking about that did evil all their life?

She is or rather has been raised in a very traditional setting. Both socially and religiously. She attends a non-denominational institution and has recently began to look at how other people come to terms with their spirituality.
My wife and I have known her parents for several years and have on occasion met for lunch or gone to other events in the community.
This whole idea of everyone is born a sinner has her thinking and I am trying to provide her with rational examples as to how most churches view this concept and how there is not always a clear delineation between choosing to do one thing or learning to do the other--can people do good because it is a choice or will people only do good if they learn and have instructions or guidance to do good?

Likewise, will people naturally chose to do bad or learn evil if they do not have proper instruction and guidance?


She mentioned another family who has a boy who is always talking about doing those extreme things like killing other things. Seems he takes great joy in killing almost any insect or small animal like mice or birds. His mother is a nurse and his father works for some community service program but the family does not attend church on a regular basis. She does see him there maybe once a month or every 6 weeks. She generally sees him at school (she is a senior and he is a few years behind)

So she is just wondering (I think she will be a great psychologist or the next Dorthy Day, Robert Service or Roger Schank) why is is so easy for her to do good things most of the time and why the other boy is so attracted to doing bad or as she calls them mean things.

[Arach Angle]

of all the teachings, this questions saddens me the most. When young people ask me this it almost makes me cry. How can people utterly remove reason, common sense, and control. I mean even the convoluted answers should reveal the truth, if even party.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by TXNGL

I don't like the idea of original sin. It makes no sense to me. Just one of many things in Christian dogma I find odd and disturbing, and why I have no home church.

And as three or four of us Christians have already pointed out, not all Christian denominations teach this doctrine. Thank God.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Infants are innocent, until corrupted.
Original sin is a false doctrine.

[2Q&Lrn&Hlp]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

I have a question for Christians. According to the Bible based on the original sin you are a sinner the day you are born. Then why do children go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability"

First, let's make sure we understand what 'sin' is . . .


In Scripture, sin is anything that is out of harmony with --contrary to-- God’s personality, standards, ways, and will;

It is anything marring one’s relationship with God.

Sin can be manifested:
- in word (Job 2:10; Ps 39:1),
- in deed (doing wrong acts (Le 20:20; 2Co 12:21),
- in the failure to do what should be done (Nu 9:13; Jas 4:17),
- in a person's mind or heart attitude (Pr 21:4; compare: Ro 3:9-18; 2Pe 2:12-15).

So, sin is not necessarily an activity or course of action . . . such as deceit, thievery, or immorality.
It exists in whatever ways an individual misses the mark of perfection intended by our Creator,
in that they have tendencies or desires that run counter to God's will.

The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chattaʼthʹ;
in Greek the usual word is hamartiʹa.

In both languages the verb forms mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point. (The verb forms of 'sin' are: Heb., chataʼʹ; Gr., hamartaʹno.)


Consider a few examples:

Chataʼʹ is used, along with a negative, to describe the Benjamites . . .
who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss,’ at Judges 20:16.

Hamartaʹno is often used by Greek writers when referring to a spearman missing his target.

Both of these words were also used to mean missing or failing to reach moral or intellectual goals or marks, as well as physical objects or goals (such as when throwing stones or spears, or setting the stakes to hold up one's tent. Job 5:24).

Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life,
but the ‘one missing [from Heb., chataʼʹ] wisdom is doing violence to his soul,’ leading to death.

In God's Word, both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark with regard to their Creator's plans & intentions for them.


When the first two humans decided to follow a course of rebellion against God's express will for them --with the knowledge that this would result in them loosing their lives-- they had no children as of yet. Their consciences were adversely affected, which can be seen by their suddenly seeing something wrong in being naked, and trying to cover themselves up. Their wrong attitude & negative feelings have since been passed down to each of their offspring, in every generation . . . including ours.


Consider . . .

When making statues & such, the crafter first designs a mold to pour the material being used into. Much time is spent making sure that the mold has no defects, to avoid turning out products with flaws making them unacceptable to their client. For, every bulge & indentation in that mold is going to be reproduced in every single item that is made with it. And, any indentation made by any of those items will likewise result in similar flaws.

When a flaw is not removed first and many flawed items get produced, they cannot be sold as intended and often end up either in the trash, because they do not measure up to the standards necessary to be used in the original way intended.



NOW . . .

WHERE in God's Word does it say that children go to heaven . . . ?

What does it actually say about the condition of the dead . . . including children & babies?

Notice:



Genesis 3:19b states:

"[You will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.";


Ecclesiastes 3:19a,20 states:

"For there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.
All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."



WHAT is the intention & purpose for the future of humankind, as stated in God's Word . . . ?

Notice:


Jesus restated as fact, prophecy from the Psalms . . . at Matthew 5:5 . . .

"Blessed the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
(This is the literal word-for-word English translation, found directly under the Greek text,
in The Emphatic Diaglott, Interlinear Bible)

In some Bibles the word for 'earth' has been mistranslated as 'land', but many do get it right, for example: WNT; NCV; KJV, ASV, DBY, WBT; BLE; WEB; BBE; By; NWT.


Jesus was basically restating the prophecy at Psalm 37:11, which says:

"[The] meek *shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (WEB)


The same chapter --in verse 9b-- also says:

"Those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth." (KJV, Webster's)


And, verse 29 notably reads:

"The upright will have the earth for their heritage, and will go on living there for ever." (BBE)



That has been God's purpose for mankind all along, and he has not changed it.

Psalm 115:16 (NWT) notes that, "the heavens belong to Jehovah [God],
but the earth he has given to the sons of men."



So . . . Now we should ask:
- What is the purpose for those who are chosen to go to heaven?
- - What are their responsibilities . . . and, could a child qualify for that reward?

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judeʹa, saying:
“REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matthew 3:1-2)

Jesus told his apostles:

“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)

“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials;and I make a covenant with you,
just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a Kingdom.” (Luke 22:28-29)

A 'kingdom' is a government, so --according to the above 3 Bible verses-- God's kingdoms is a government that rules from the heavenly realm, which Christ will rule over --but-- there will be those who will rule alongside him in that kingdom, over the earth & mankind. Their purpose will be to bring humankind to perfection, and the earth back to paradisiac conditions. . . .


Who did Christ choose to be his apostles? Were any of them children, or, were they all full-grown, mature individuals --with upright hearts-- who had an accurate knowledge of God . . . ?

Do all who die as children have each of those qualifications? Do any of them . . . ? NO.
Why would God choose people too young to reason on their own for a very serious job like that . . . people who have not yet had reasonable opportunity to decide what they want to do with their lives . . . ? God does not force anyone to serve him, and, it is obvious to any thinking person that not everyone at any given age has the desire to serve God.


So . . . the idea that children who die go to heaven stems from other than God's Word the Bible.
True Christians teach what God's Word teaches . . . not what others merely claim that it says:

“Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”—Matthew 7:21-23.

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

I have a question for Christians . . . why do children go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability"

They simply do not, and it is a cruel lie that God takes people's children away from them in death!:

“Some years ago my baby girl died,” explained a middle-aged mother. “I believed in God, so I sought comfort from the local priest. He told me that God had taken Susanne to heaven, where she was now an angel. Not only did the world around me collapse because of her death but I hated God for having taken her.”

This woman's pain and suffering continued for several years. “Then one of Jehovah’s Witnesses showed me from the Bible that I had no reason to hate God. Jehovah did not take Susanne to heaven, and she is not an angel. Her illness was the result of human imperfection. Susanne is sleeping in death, waiting for Jehovah to resurrect her. I also learned that he made humans to live forever on a paradise earth, and this will soon be realized. Once I began to understand what sort of person Jehovah really is, I drew closer to him, and my pain began to subside.”—Psalm 37:29; Acts 24:15; Romans 5:12.

(Source of that experience is the article: "Jehovah—A God Worth Knowing" )

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

According to the Bible based on the original sin you are a sinner the day you are born.

Correction: 'The day you are conceived.'

"Sinner' = one who misses the mark of perfection . . . not necessarily one who intentionally practices wrongdoing.

[Freak80]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

I have a question for Christians. According to the Bible based on the original sin you are a sinner the day you are born. Then why do children go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability"

If I'm not mistaken, the "age of accountability" is a doctrine unique to baptist denominations. Traditional baptists were against infant baptism. Many (most?) other traditional Christian churches believe that infants must be baptized in order to save them from eternal hellfire. For example, my cousin was born with spinal meningitis and I remember the pastor doing an emergency baptism on her in the hospital. I was only 10 at the time.

[TUMF]

Queue the song please..... Our God, Is An Awesome God....

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

I have a question for Christians. According to the Bible based on the original sin you are a sinner the day you are born. Then why do children go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability"

It doesn't say anyone goes to heaven right when they die. People merely use a scripture they **think** supports that idea.

In Acts, Peter said David had not gone to heaven, that his tomb was with us to this day. John said only Christ went to heaven.

We are not born with original sin. The Bible never says so. Romans 5:12 stated that death, yes DEATH is what entered into the human race due to Adam's one act and because of that, all sin. So it should be called "original death."

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Nobody is born guilty of anything, and God doesn't punish the innocent. Jesus Christ died in order to atone for our sins. It would be absurd to say that His Atonement was not powerful enough to cover Adam's sin and God is therefore going to punish everyone who has ever been born for something they did not do.

Yet the Bible does explicitly state that we are born in sin. As children of Adam, we inherit a sinful nature.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Yet the Bible does explicitly state that we are born in sin. As children of Adam, we inherit a sinful nature.

Where does the bible state that we are born in sin?