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Snowball, you have your view and the man in the recording has his, and many do hold to your view, but there is no reason to take the language of Rev. 7:4-8 as symbolic or figurative. The 144,000 are specifically stated to be from the tribes of Israel. Just because there is a lot of symbolic language and imagery in Revelation does not justify symbolizing everything. The Church will be raptured before the Tribulation ever begins though I think you disagree with that as well. Those who come to know Christ during the Tribulation, including the 144,000 will not belong to the Church. There will be Jewish believers and Gentile believers in the Tribulation but they will not be Church.
Let me just quote from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.
7:4-8. John heard the names of the 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe . . .sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not ''lost'' as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows. [The Bible knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 949].
At any rate, this is no more on topic than what I've been going over with Richard is, and on which I've spent entirely too much time, so I'm not inclined to continue with it. I'm sure we're each going to continue to hold to our respective views.
Beautiful job of skirting the question, Mike. Richard's question was, "Did Yeshua have children as the passage prophesizes he would?"
As a side-note, this is a perfect example of why the Bible is such a flawed piece of work. It's immaterial whether Mike555 is right or Richard 1965 is right. The point is that each has given some pretty convincing evidence and explanation for why they are right and yet the two opinions are diametrically opposed to each other. Mike is convinced he is right; Richard and I are convinced we are right. How can an "inspired" piece of writing be so confoundingly "dumbly" written that it can support two opposing opinions at the same time? Half the rabbis are convinced the chapter is about Jesus, and the other half are convinced it's about Israel. Does God write in such confusing language that He actually IS the author of confusion? Based on just Isaiah 53 alone I'd say He is.
Well, all those Rabbis that Mike proffered are Messianic Jews...Which means they are no longer Jews but Christians...
Isaiah 53:10 which refers to the Servant's offspring simply refers to all who would believe on Him for eternal life. To believers, reconciled to God, and saved by his death.
What you're saying now is that all of the Jewish rabbis and commentators who view Isaiah 53 as Messianic are mistaken.
And what you are further saying is that Acts 8:26-35 is not true.
This is just plain denial on your part in the face of very strong evidence against your opinion.
Where's this evidence?...
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.†This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).â€
In contrast with your translation, here is the English translation of the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls which pre-dates the text you are using.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet the LORD was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer. Although you make his soul an offering for sin, and he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will triumph in his hand. http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#54:17
This compares with the Masoretic Text. Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. [NASB]
And from The Tanakh;
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Yeshayahu (Isaiah): Chapter 53 | Jewish Virtual Library
The Messiah offered Himself up for our sins. He ransomed us from slavery to sin. He Himself did not sin but bore our sins in His own body as our substitute.
And again, many, many Jewish commentators down through the centuries have regarded Isaiah 53 as Messianic.
Again...When did Yeshua ever have children?...Offspring?...
The text of the Great Isaiah Scroll generally conforms to the Masoretic or traditional version codified in medieval codices (all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version, in the same conventional order). At the same time, however, the two thousand year old scroll contains alternative spellings, scribal errors, corrections, and most fundamentally, many variant readings. Strictly speaking, the number of textual variants is well over 2,600, ranging from a single letter, sometimes one or more words, to complete variant verse or verses. - http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#54:17
Funny thing too is that the translators of the scroll are Christians...
Last edited by Richard1965; 05-16-2015 at 09:44 PM..
Well, all those Rabbis that Mike proffered are Messianic Jews...Which means they are no longer Jews but Christians...
First of all, a racial Jew who believes in Christ is still a racial Jew who has the genes of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
However, your insinuation that a Jew who recognizes that Isaiah 53 is Messianic must be a Messianic Jew is not true. The belief that Isaiah 53 is Messianic does not necessarily mean that those Jews who hold that view believe that Jesus is that Messiah. The Jews are looking for the Messiah, but most Jews don't believe that Jesus is that Messiah.
Rabbi Moshe Alshich, as I mentioned stated the following;
''Our Rabbis of blessed memory with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view.'' [Quoted in The Fifty-Third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, pages 258-259 (translations by S.R. Driver and A.D. Neubauer), KTAV publishing House, New York, 1969.] What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53 - Hope In Messiah
But Alshich defended traditional Jewish views and wrote a declaration against Azariah dei Rossi.
'Azariah dei Rossi produced his "Meor 'Enayim" (Light for the Eyes), in which the author rejected some beliefs generally received as traditional; Alshich, at the request of his teacher, R. Joseph Caro, wrote a declaration against the "Meor 'Enayim" as being contrary and dangerous to the Jewish religion (Kerem Chemed, v. 141). ' Moshe Alshich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Where's this evidence?...
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.†This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).â€
Repeating this again does not strengthen your argument that the Servant in Isaiah (the Messiah) sinned and needed to repent. I have already shown you in post # 79 that neither the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Masoretic Text, and another translation of the Tanakh has the reading that you supplied. I will post it again.
Post #79
[quote=Mike555;39642757]In contrast with your translation, here is the English translation of the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls which pre-dates the text you are using.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet the LORD was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer. Although you make his soul an offering for sin, and he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will triumph in his hand. http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#54:17
This compares with the Masoretic Text. Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. [NASB]
And from The Tanakh;
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Yeshayahu (Isaiah): Chapter 53 | Jewish Virtual Library
The Messiah offered Himself up for our sins. He ransomed us from slavery to sin. He Himself did not sin but bore our sins in His own body as our substitute.
Christ Jesus did not sin. He did not need to repent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Again...When did Yeshua ever have children?...Offspring?...
This is as much time as I am going to spend on this. Isaiah 53 is Messianic. Not only does the text show that, but it is the view of many Jewish Rabbi commentators. And more importantly, Acts 8:26-36 shows Isaiah 53 to be Messianic with reference to Jesus.
Having turned your back on Christianity, assuming you were ever really a Christian in the first place, and having embraced the religion of Judaism, you have displayed an agenda to discredit Christianity and the New Testament Scriptures. Therefore you will ignore what Acts 8 says concerning Isaiah. But I have provided more than enough information to show that Isaiah 53 is indeed Messianic and refers to Jesus. Your continued objections and denials are irrelevant. We're done here.
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
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The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 can be neither all of Israel nor Jesus.
The entire chapter divides "us" and "we" (all Israel) against one person, not all Israel vs all Israel. It doesn't make any sense to say that all of Israel suffered to redeem all of Israel: "Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. "Israel bore Israel's illnesses, and Israel's pains - Israel carried them, yet Israel accounted Israel as plagued ...."
Nor can it be Jesus, since it has a happy ending for him, and who according to Christian theology had no seed (children) as Richard notes.
Nor can it refer to some future Messiah, since it contradicts other prophecies of him being powerful and victorious in battle and saving Israel, rather than being a woeful suffering servant.
It's just a good piece of poetic writing from a man who thought he was channeling the local tribal deity, Yahweh (Jehovah)
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