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The New Oxford Annotated Bible Page 272 NT: There are important contrasts between Ephesians and the letters that we can confidently ascribe to Paul.Many of the words in Ephesians do not appear elsewhere in the apostle’s correspondence, and some important terms have a different meaning here from their meaning in letters that are surely Paul’s. The style, with its loose collection of phrases and clauses and long sentences, is not characteristic of Paul’s writing.Ephesians is, therefore, judged to be a forgery.
Now tell me to my face, Mike that The New Oxford Annotated Bible is an unreputable source.
All you've done is to present someone's commentary and opinion.
The argument concerning the words found in Ephesians was refuted in post #5.
But if it is in the The New Oxford Annotated Bible then your own Bible owns it, Mike regardless of who the commentary comes from. The NOAB wouldn't put such a jolting admission into their publication from just anybody. Your own holy book admits the epistle is a forgery. How can that be, Mike? How can a distinguished Bible admit something so astounding and Christians not take it seriously?
What Christendom does is use Jesus to draw the mark in and then preach Paul in order to snare the mark.
Well, as I commented in another thread the modern-day Corporate Christian Hierarch uses Jesus merely as a figurehead. The Christianity of today has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Most of its theology comes from Paul. Several Biblical scholars have openly admitted that without Paul there'd be no Christianity today. We'd all be Mithras followers.
But if it is in the The New Oxford Annotated Bible then your own Bible owns it, Mike regardless of who the commentary comes from. The NOAB wouldn't put such a jolting admission into their publication from just anybody. Your own holy book admits the epistle is a forgery. How can that be, Mike? How can a distinguished Bible admit something so astounding and Christians not take it seriously?
The NOAB is simply another Bible translation. That doesn't make the commentary that someone makes in it any more authoritative then the commentary in any other Bible translation that has commentary in it. The commentary is not part of the Bible. And again, as shown, the opinions of the scholars who argue against Pauline authorship are based on arguments that are not solid. This has been shown in post #5.
zthatzmanz28, you're a pretty reasonable fundamentalists to chat with, vastly unlike most here. Here's my point; I'll explain it to you so that others can read it. I'm not out to publically call the Bible a fraud, though I may think that privately. I acknowledge it has merit as a collection of writings that give comfort to some people in times of crisis when they have no idea why they're here on this earth and where they're going after death. All kinds of books give comfort for these crises and the Bible is one of them.
I see no point in trying to tow the party line in maintaining Ephesians is genuine when all the evidence screams it isn't. Whether it invalidates important Christian doctrine is another issue. Personally I think it calls salvation by faith alone into question, especially when Jesus never said "it is by faith alone that you have been saved". Jesus always stressed doing good works. The parable of the Good Samaritan is a perfect example. Jesus said, "Go and do likewise", probably among his most profound utterances.
Paul created a brand new Christianity, most of it is apart from what Jesus taught.
In other words, Paul's own teachings eclipse even those of Jesus.
No serious damage is done exteriorally by owning up to the fact that Ephesians is forged. The argument, as I said, can be made that the Christian message says intact merely by stating that the writer of Ephesians was just as inspired by the Holy Spirit when writing Ephesians as was Paul and the rest. Some Christians, however, might have a personal issue adopting the salvation by faith alone theology knowing that Paul didn't write it after all. This is for each Christian individually to ponder and then come to a decision about whether he or she will continue to follow it. Personally, I wouldn't, but then I never believed salvation was by faith alone anyway. Jesus and James made that abundantly clear in the gospels and the James epistle.
My intention was just to draw Christians' attention to this fact and then let them weigh the matter and decide on it. But I can predict there will be some here who will say, "No, you're real intention is to attack and undermine Christianity and make people believe it is a fraudulent religion." To which I add, "No, it isn't. That would be pointless"
FUNDAMENTALIST??
Jerry Falwell has just drank another glass of KOOL-ADE.
LOL
I am not saying I know what you are saying--but I am saying I greatly appreciate you raising these
issues.
For me, my faith, love and commitment to God is not based on what someone may or may not have written in a book that has no origin of authenticity.
The only real passage / verse that I cling to (other that LOVE God and NEIGHBOR) is JOHN 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
So how can anyone limit GOD/JESUS/HS to a book that is KNOWN by every theological expert to have MAJOR errors and alterations done NUMEROUS times...
Then they say we are to accept theses ERROR because GOD ALLOWED the errors?? I call a giant BS on this so called rational thought...
Paul was everything (90%) that Jesus spoke against during His ministry hereon earth.
Why some are terrified by conversation I will never know. But I should not be surprised.
During my undergrad studies and prior, I spent 3-4 years attending several Wards in my area. I went to service, their version of Sunday School (men only) women had another version.
It was kind of informative and I was able to take those years and write a term paper during my senior year about my experience. The class was GROUP DYNAMICS 480 and the ONLY project was that term paper discussing the group's function, structure and hierarchy.
It was like a 50 page paper and since there were only 13 of us left at the end of the semester (55 started in the class) we had 20-30 minutes to discuss our paper and our experience with the group we wrote about.
After I had presented my paper, I thought there would be questions about the organization and how it did this or did that...instead all the questions were focused on how the experience impacted my faith and how it changed my beliefs.
The class was amazed anyone could be part of a group for years and not alter their thinking or become somehow attached and integrated int the group. Most said they could never do anything like that because it would change who they were and believed..
The point is, if you believe, and your faith is strong and you know where you belong and to whom you belong, you will NEVER be enticed to leave that rock.
And what better witness can there ever be than a person who LOVES and has friends in the lowest of places....
Well, as I commented in another thread the modern-day Corporate Christian Hierarch uses Jesus merely as a figurehead. The Christianity of today has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Most of its theology comes from Paul. Several Biblical scholars have openly admitted that without Paul there'd be no Christianity today. We'd all be Mithras followers.
Well that is not so hard to understand. Paul popularized the word 'Christian'. He called himself a 'Roman Jew' and his life prior to being 'converted' due to an incident he claimed happened on the side of a road - he was a bully murdering servant of Rome and Judaism.
It is not inconceivable that he was 'black ops' and involved in a plan to eradicate the small threat to the establishment which wasn't being put down by the usual murderous methods so it was necessary to infiltrate the troublesome cult and gain a position of authority and leadership within it.
Paul is more likely to have been the first pope than was Peter.
But anyhoo, these human dramas have a way of steering human populations into controllable corrals...'how?' may not be as important as 'why?'
It seems the human race is becoming bored with such dramas...and would like to discard the whole garment as old filthy rags unfit for anything practical...way over its use-by date.
Mike555, as usual your scholarship is to be admired. I cannot claim that level for myself, but then again, as someone raised a strict and now renegade Catholic, I have over the past 45 years developed my own original heresies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus didn't teach that works are necessary for eternal life. When He spoke with the Samaritan woman He told her that eternal life was a free gift and all she had to do was to ask for it.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
I dont buy this interpretation at all. I can murder people, but ask for eternal life, and I'll get a pass?
Besides, my friend, you often scatter multiple verses before us to make your point. So why should I accept that one verse makes yours?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Similarly, in Revelation, given to John by Jesus, the water of life is stated to be without cost.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
On another occasion Jesus was speaking to a crowd and spoke of working not for food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life. But when asked by the crowd what the works of God were that they might do them Jesus simply replied that the work of God was to believe on Him. The crowd thought that there were works that they could do to receive eternal life. But Jesus corrected their thinking by telling them that there was but one 'work', that they could do for eternal life. Believe on Him. The crowd, being Jews under the Mosaic Law thought in terms of doing, of working, and so Jesus used language that they would understand. Therefore He spoke of believing on Him as a work.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (ἔργα - erga; plural) of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (ἔργον - ergon; singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Working for food for one's self is a LOT different than feeding those who need the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
At the Council at Jerusalem, Peter speaking for the others who were present, including the apostle Paul, stated the following;
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the cross. Grace excludes works. Since salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus, then works are not a part of attaining eternal life just as Paul stated.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Paul stated that we are saved by grace through faith and that grace excludes works. Peter and the others agreed with Paul. Paul, agreeing with Jesus stated that eternal life is a gift. You don't work for a free gift, otherwise it isn't a gift.
Paul is not Jesus, and when it comes to obvious contradiction the words of Jesus take precedence.
Now, you might ask, but what about the rich young ruler who asked Jesus what he must do to attain eternal life (Matthew 19:16-26)? Like the crowd to whom Jesus spoke (John 6:27-29), this man thought he could earn or attain eternal life by doing something. So Jesus answered him by telling him to keep the commandments if he wished to enter into eternal life. But Jesus said this in order to show the man that no one is able to keep the commands perfectly and cannot therefore be saved by keeping the commandments. As Jesus then explained to His disciples, eternal salvation is impossible for man, but possible for God (Matt. 19:25-26).[/quote]
Jesus also instructed him to sell his belongings and give the money to the poor. I dont believe there is a Christian alive who believes he should accept that commandment.[/quote]
Regarding that issue, James stated that to break the law at one point was to be guilty of breaking the entire law.[/quote]
Attitudes like this are a great part if the reason I am on my own path creating my own heresies.
There is also that "God gets all the credit if you are good but it is entirely my own fault when I am not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The passage you mentioned, Matthew 25:35, in context refers to the still future Tribulation. During that time, lawlessness will be so great that the love of many will grow cold (Matthew 24:12). As a result, only those people who believe in Christ during the Tribulation will be willing to help the Jews. Non-believers will not. The passage is not teaching salvation by works, but simply that the willingness to help others will characterize believers during the Tribulation. And they of course will go into the kingdom.
And everyone, both believers and non-believers will be judged according to their works. Believers will be judged for the purpose of rewards. As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (1 Corinthians by the way is accepted as genuine), the believer's works of 'gold, silver, and precious stones' will be rewarded, but his works of 'wood, hay, and straw' will be burned up though he himself is saved.
Looks to me like you want it both ways. Either works are required or they are not.
BTW I am hving trouble with the picture of Jesus sitting there at the right hand of God, looking over and saying "you know, Dad, I changed my mind about that works thing. I think I'll go tell that Paul guy to preach my correction."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus also spoke of being rewarded, not with eternal life which is a free gift, but with, in the context of the parable of the minas, rulership responsibilities in the kingdom (Luke 19:11-26). See also Revelation 2:26-27.
Unbelievers on the other hand, since they have rejected the redemptive work of Christ on their behalf will by default have to rely on their works to justify and save them when they appear before Christ, the ones coming out of the Tribulation at the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46), and others at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). They will condemned on the basis of their works.
The early Christians expected that they were to live Christian lives. Such a life included feeding the poor among them. Why would they do that if works were not required?
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