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For example: "As soon as the music starts, you are to bow down and worship the gold statue that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up."
Bow down, or die.
Not exactly "reverential worship".
Of course it's not true.
There are several reasons bowing occurred other than for "reverential worship" :
There was friendly welcoming\greeting bowing between people
There was bowing out total fear when seeing angels
There was forced bowing when one was the defeated combatant (which Persia \ Babylonians where well known for doing to those whom they defeated\brought into captivity)
While I do believe there will be people eternally separated from God, there is a big difference between my beliefs and those of fundamentalists (a good portion of whom will make up those cast into outer darkness). I take no joy in seeing that happen. I don't dwell on it as the way to bring people to God. My preaching involved the joy of Christ coming into one's heart--and, yes, people came to Jesus under that preaching.
Jesus, Himself primarily condemned to "hell" the bible thumpers of His day. They are still among us touting their self-righteous attitudes in gleeful expectation of watching others burn from their mansions in the sky.
Of course it's not true.
There are several reasons bowing occurred other than for "reverential worship" :
There was friendly welcoming\greeting bowing between people
There was bowing out total fear when seeing angels
There was forced bowing when one was the defeated combatant (which Persia \ Babylonians where well known for doing to those whom they defeated\brought into captivity)
Yes, people bowed for many reasons. Today, people stand up in court to heard their sentence, but standing up won't get them out of jail. It will be similar on the day of judgment.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-02-2015 at 09:45 AM..
Jesus, Himself primarily condemned to "hell" the bible thumpers of His day. They are still among us touting their self-righteous attitudes in gleeful expectation of watching others burn from their mansions in the sky.
Actually He did not condemn anyone to "hell" in His day. Please cite your scripture He did so. Then we can go from there.
Actually He did not condemn anyone to "hell" in His day. Please cite your scripture He did so. Then we can go from there.
Okay. Since we argue with scripture and just Jesus' words stick to those with your response. We will then be in a battle of interpretation/emphasis rather than "explaining" what was meant.
29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?
Matt 16: 29-33
Matthew 5:22
22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 25:46
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Since the majority of "hell" verses are in Matthew perhaps you may wish to exclude it from your repertoire of biblical records. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not at all interested in debating the meaning of everlasting or eternal. Separation is separation, and i can't think how that could possibly be placed in any good light. A twenty year imprisonment or life imprisonment are equally unappealing to me.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 06-02-2015 at 10:55 AM..
Okay. Since we argue with scripture and just Jesus' words stick to those with your response. We will then be in a battle of interpretation/emphasis rather than "explaining" what was meant.
29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?
Matt 16: 29-33
Matthew 5:22
22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 25:46
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Since the majority of "hell" verses are in Matthew perhaps you may wish to exclude it from your repertoire of biblical records. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not at all interested in debating the meaning of everlasting or eternal. Separation is separation, and i can't think how that could possibly be placed in any good light. A twenty year imprisonment or life imprisonment are equally unappealing to me.
First of all, Jesus never used the word "hell." He only used the word "Gehenna." Gehenna is a valley to the south of Jerusalem and, when Christ returns, will be a trash dump where there will be fires burning the offal of the city and worms eating it where the fires are not in that valley. It will be a very disgraceful thing to have ones dead body dumped into Gehenna where the fires are or worms to be on public display rather than being entombed.
The same goes for Matthew 5:22. Gehenna was spoken by Christ, not "Hell."
Matthew 25:46 is not about Hell at all and Hell was never mentioned there. When Israel was held captive in Egypt 400+ years they were said to be in an iron furnace. Was Egypt a literal furnace? Was Egypt a literal place of fire? Was Egypt literally an iron furnace? Matthew 25:46 is about nations who either treated Christ's brethren well or poorly. The bad nations go into the same kind of furnace of fire Israel was in. They will be chastened for that 1000 years.
Since the majority of "Hell" verses are in your translation, you may wish to take your bible back and get a better translation.
I'm sure you'd rather have 20 years imprisonment rather than life. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think both are the same.
First of all, Jesus never used the word "hell." He only used the word "Gehenna." Gehenna is a valley to the south of Jerusalem and, when Christ returns, will be a trash dump where there will be fires burning the offal of the city and worms eating it where the fires are not in that valley. It will be a very disgraceful thing to have ones dead body dumped into Gehenna where the fires are or worms to be on public display rather than being entombed.
The same goes for Matthew 5:22. Gehenna was spoken by Christ, not "Hell."
Matthew 25:46 is not about Hell at all and Hell was never mentioned there. When Israel was held captive in Egypt 400+ years they were said to be in an iron furnace. Was Egypt a literal furnace? Was Egypt a literal place of fire? Was Egypt literally an iron furnace? Matthew 25:46 is about nations who either treated Christ's brethren well or poorly. The bad nations go into the same kind of furnace of fire Israel was in. They will be chastened for that 1000 years.
Since the majority of "Hell" verses are in your translation, you may wish to take your bible back and get a better translation.
I'm sure you'd rather have 20 years imprisonment rather than life. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think both are the same.
So Gehenna is living with God? I didn't see any verses with Jesus' words. Also in one verse Jesus says "Gehenna fire?" And in another everlasting punishment?
Are you stating there are no consequences for living as Jesus clearly stated is incorrect.
I am not the least interested in purgatory type of views. While I don't believe in it, there is insufficient textual proof for either viewpoint. My point is that there will be some sort of separation from God. The interpretation of this eon or that---or eternal as understood in English isn't clear enough to make blanket statements. Separation from God I cannot imagine will be a pleasant interlude for whatever period of time. But perhaps you think so.
I am less convinced of the "pit of fire" idea, but separation from God is quite clear in Greek, Latin, and English. Your interpretations are still as much of a stretch as those holding to forever damnation in a burning pit. It simply is not clear enough (nor IMO important enough) to dwell upon---unless someone's belief system NEEDS others to be punished eternally as self justification for their own miserable life.
I don't think your particular beliefs are a threat to Christianity. Living for Christ is what we do today, and, as Heartsong so aptly quoted elsewhere, "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
Last edited by Wardendresden; 06-02-2015 at 12:07 PM..
So Gehenna is living with God? I didn't see any verses with Jesus' words. Also in one verse Jesus says "Gehenna fire?" And in another everlasting punishment?
No, Gehenna is a valley which will be a trash dump. I never intimated it was living with God so why do you state that?
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Are you stating there are no consequences for living as Jesus clearly stated is incorrect.
Why would you ask such a question? Gehenna is the consequence of what Jesus said it is a consequence of.
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I am not the least interested in purgatory type of views.
I'm not either.
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While I don't believe in it, there is insufficient textual proof for either viewpoint. My point is that there will be some sort of separation from God. The interpretation of this eon or that---or eternal as understood in English isn't clear enough to make blanket statements. Separation from God I cannot imagine will be a pleasant interlude for whatever period of time. But perhaps you think so.
No, I don't think being cast out of the kingdom Jesus is going to set up on earth and being kicked out of that kingdom in Israel, to live with the goat nations, is going to be pleasant. They will be living amongst the nations that are being chastened during that time.
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I am less convinced of the "pit of fire" idea, but separation from God is quite clear in Greek, Latin, and English. Your interpretations are still as much of a stretch as those holding to forever damnation in a burning pit. It simply is not clear enough (nor IMO important enough) to dwell upon---unless someone's belief system NEEDS others to be punished eternally as self justification for their own miserable life.
No one suffers physical pain in Gehenna. They are dead when their dead bodies are cast into that trash dump. So you don't believe Jesus when He spoke of the "fires of Gehenna?"
So you believe Egypt was a literal iron furnace? If my interpretation is a stretch, what exactly is the furnace of fire to you? Let's see who is stretching what, shall we?
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I don't think your particular beliefs are a threat to Christianity.
Believe me, they are a threat to nonimal church goers who are unversed in the Scriptures.
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Living for Christ is what we do today, and, as Heartsong so aptly quoted elsewhere, "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
We are not talking about tomorrow and its troubles. We are talking about if Jesus used the word "Hell" or not.
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