Christian Universalism: A threat to Christianity. (Jacob, POV, eternity, bless)

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Their damnation is but only one thing ... damnation as Jesus said since every word he spoke was not his but the Father's.

Truth is that Jesus said that those who refuse to believe the truth are condemned already before they die (John 3:18) and by your words one is either acquitted or condemned (Matthew 12:37) and that those who have done evil will rise condemned (John 5:29)

To claim otherwise is to preach "another Jesus" message. And those who preach "another Jesus" will be cursed just as Jesus said will happen (Matthew 25:41)

You are certainly correct that those who do not believe are condemned already. Paul shows that due to what Adam did that all mankind are condemned. Condemned to what? Condemned to die as Romans 5:12 and verse 18 attest to. So yes, I agree with you on that. They are condemned already. But they are not condemned to some Dantean "Hell."

You are also correct that those who arise who have done evil will be condemned. But in that eon/age which is the 1000 year millennial age, what are they condemned to? They are condemned to have to live amongst the goat nations. They will be kicked out of Christ's kingdom He is going to set up in Israel. It will be a very sad day for those who are disenfranchised from His kingdom. They truly will be weeping and gnashing their teeth.

The really bad thing is when one infers that such condemnation lasts eternally when no such length of time was conveyed to the condemned. To claim otherwise is to preach "another Jesus" message.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Hey pneuma and Jerwade,

I completely agree universal reconciliation is rooted fundamentally in grace and mercy, however, I don't think it really addresses the question entirely. Jerwade's answer did somewhat, even if their theocracy was justifiably judged for their disbelief (Matthew 24:2; Roman 9:22), void of grace and mercy, but rather death and destruction. The question is, what is the "purpose" of our belief and relationship with God in the here and now, when those that don't have this will also be reconciled in the afterlife?

Look up what the first fruit are brother. You will find they are the promise of the whole harvest. Therefore our purpose is to bring in the whole harvest.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Hey pneuma and Jerwade,

I completely agree universal reconciliation is rooted fundamentally in grace and mercy, however, I don't think it really addresses the question entirely. Jerwade's answer did somewhat, even if their theocracy was justifiably judged for their disbelief (Matthew 24:2; Roman 9:22), void of grace and mercy, but rather death and destruction. The question is, what is the "purpose" of our belief and relationship with God in the here and now, when those that don't have this will also be reconciled in the afterlife?

Let's try again:

Originally Posted by nateswift

If love is true and God is love, why would you want to delay a realization of that truth? God's communication with us is not limited by either the Bible or by the by the life and ministry of Jesus, though that is the clearest communication I have seen.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

You are certainly correct that those who do not believe are condemned already. Paul shows that due to what Adam did that all mankind are condemned. Condemned to what? Condemned to die as Romans 5:12 and verse 18 attest to. So yes, I agree with you on that. They are condemned already. But they are not condemned to some Dantean "Hell."

You are also correct that those who arise who have done evil will be condemned. But in that eon/age which is the 1000 year millennial age, what are they condemned to? They are condemned to have to live amongst the goat nations. They will be kicked out of Christ's kingdom He is going to set up in Israel. It will be a very sad day for those who are disenfranchised from His kingdom. They truly will be weeping and gnashing their teeth.

The really bad thing is when one infers that such condemnation lasts eternally when no such length of time was conveyed to the condemned. To claim otherwise is to preach "another Jesus" message.

Briefly ( and without changing the subject) Millennialism has historically been viewed as heresy as I have shown repeatedly for who knows how many times to which you'll have to search my former posts concerning that as to why.

Jesus makes very clear that the two separate groups of people, once separated will remain separate and the two will experience totally opposite treatment that does not end. He speaks of this in several places within the NT which is consistent with the OT when stated about forsaking God:

1 Chronicles 28:9 YLT
"...for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding;
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever."

1 Chronicles 28:9 NIV
"...for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

That message (1 Chronicles 28:9) is the message that Jesus did not change.
It's just a simple given ... where a person finds himself after death, they're permanently there for the duration.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Briefly ( and without changing the subject) Millennialism has historically been viewed as heresy as I have shown repeatedly for who knows how many times to which you'll have to search my former posts concerning that as to why.

Jesus makes very clear that the two separate groups of people, once separated will remain separate and the two will experience totally opposite treatment that does not end. He speaks of this in several places within the NT which is consistent with the OT when stated about forsaking God:

1 Chronicles 28:9 YLT
"...for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding;
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever."

1 Chronicles 28:9 NIV
"...for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

That message (1 Chronicles 28:9) is the message that Jesus did not change.
It's just a simple given ... where a person finds himself after death, they're permanently there for the duration.

Concerning the thousand years, please kindly note:

Revelation 20:1-11 And I perceived a messenger descending out of heaven, having the key of the
submerged chaos and a large chain in his hand." (2) And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient
serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years." (3) And he casts him into
the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him (lest he should still be deceiving the nations)
until the thousand years should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time." (4) And
I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of
those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do
not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand-
they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years." (5) (The rest of the dead do not live until the
thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. (6) Happy and holy is he who is
having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be
priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." (7) And whenever
the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." (8) And he will be coming
out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing
them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea." (9) And they went up over the breadth of
the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out
of heaven and devoured them." (10) And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of
fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented
day and night for the eons of the eons." (11) And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is
sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."

If you look at what Christ told His disciples in response to Matthew 24:3 and their asking Jesus about the end of this eon and all the things occurring in chapters 24 and 25, and compare that to Revelation, you will see there has to be a one thousand year reign of Christ when this present wicked eon ends. And then after the 1000 years, the great white throne judgment and then the New Earth.

Your verses of 1 Chronicles 28:9 are wrong, unless you understand all the evers come to an end since "ever" is a translation of aiwn and the Bible says all the aiwns end. Besides, God will not cast Israel off for-ever as in "eternally" since Romans 11 says He will save Israel in the future.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Concerning the thousand years, please kindly note:

Revelation 20:1-11 And I perceived a messenger descending out of heaven, having the key of the
submerged chaos and a large chain in his hand." (2) And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient
serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years." (3) And he casts him into
the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him (lest he should still be deceiving the nations)
until the thousand years should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time." (4) And
I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of
those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do
not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand-
they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years." (5) (The rest of the dead do not live until the
thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. (6) Happy and holy is he who is
having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be
priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." (7) And whenever
the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." (8) And he will be coming
out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing
them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea." (9) And they went up over the breadth of
the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out
of heaven and devoured them." (10) And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of
fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented
day and night for the eons of the eons." (11) And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is
sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."

If you look at what Christ told His disciples in response to Matthew 24:3 and their asking Jesus about the end of this eon and all the things occurring in chapters 24 and 25, and compare that to Revelation, you will see there has to be a one thousand year reign of Christ when this present wicked eon ends. And then after the 1000 years, the great white throne judgment and then the New Earth.

Your verses of 1 Chronicles 28:9 are wrong, unless you understand all the evers come to an end since "ever" is a translation of aiwn and the Bible says all the aiwns end. Besides, God will not cast Israel off for-ever as in "eternally" since Romans 11 says He will save Israel in the future.

1) Being Rev itself admits that it's symbolic in nature, one can not take the numbers found in Rev literal anymore than expecting to see Jesus having literal bronze glowing feet \ his name written on his thigh \ a double edged sword coming out from his mouth and so on as described in Rev.

2) As far as Matthew 24 \ 25 understand that Jesus intermixes the events of the sudden end of Jerusalem as an example of the sudden end to this world's end. Sometimes his inter-mixing is not clearly recognizable as demonstrated by the disciples line of questioning.

Concerning the verses of 1 Chronicles 28:9 being wrong... well, what else can one expect if one has eyes but is not willing to believe what it says.

Nowhere does Jesus in the NT makes the claim that all people are NT Israel. One can not even read Revelation in a literal sense and come away with that conclusion.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by nateswift

Let's try again:

Hi Nate,

I am sorry. Maybe I misunderstood you. What you are saying is that by loving, you essentially are having a relationship with God? What about those that don't find love or can love, but only hate? Where do they fit in? I still don't think you have answered my question. The question is not about those that are ignorant or oblivious to the scriptures, etc, but about the relationship that we have knowing God/Christ. What is the purpose of our relationship to Him if others will never have one because of their hate, etc. under the context of universal reconciliation and the eventual realization of that love for them in the afterlife?

[arleigh]

All that in the bible is not God's own word.
A great deal of it is men's word making assumptions and addressing their own point of view .attempting to paint a picture for others to inturpret.
Jesus Provided the Holy Spirit to guide the believer in Gods will , now and for the future .
Jesus said the world cannot recieve the Holy Spirit, He is designated to believers that obey Jesus.
Salvation is not based on thought ,nor intellect, but on obedience, even a child can do, via this relationship.

Jesus did not teach grace , that was Paul's influence, assuming God was over looking sin .
God does not compromise with sin, then now or ever.

Repentence is not apology .
Repentence, is turning from self govern, to God govern, which can only be accomplished via the Holy Spirit, Jesus provided the believers that obey Him.
Matthew 7;21,22,23, Not every one that says to me, "Lord Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of the Father.
One cannot know the will of the Father with out the Holy Spirit.

Falsely calling Jesus Lord if His lordship is not actually being exercised in your life, is a lie .
How does God deal with liars ?

One cannot be obedient with out the Holy Spirit.
Many "believers" that choose not to find this obedience , Matthew 7;21 is appropreate.
The world that refuses to yield to God, stand condemned already because they don't believe in the Son of God and obey Him.
John 3;16,17,18, and John 15;

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Hi Nate,

I am sorry. Maybe I misunderstood you. What you are saying is that by loving, you essentially are having a relationship with God? What about those that don't find love or can love, but only hate? Where do they fit in? I still don't think you have answered my question. The question is not about those that are ignorant or oblivious to the scriptures, etc, but about the relationship that we have knowing God/Christ. What is the purpose of our relationship to Him if others will never have one because of their hate, etc. under the context of universal reconciliation and the eventual realization of that love for them in the afterlife?

I believe it goes something like this:
In the presence of light, darkness cannot exist. In the same way, in the presence of pure love, hate cannot exist. If God is pure love then hate cannot exist in his presence.

It is not the work of the person, it is the work of God. It doesn't matter when the realization happens but the Bible says it does. God wills all men to be saved.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Hi Nate,

I am sorry. Maybe I misunderstood you. What you are saying is that by loving, you essentially are having a relationship with God? What about those that don't find love or can love, but only hate? Where do they fit in? I still don't think you have answered my question. The question is not about those that are ignorant or oblivious to the scriptures, etc, but about the relationship that we have knowing God/Christ. What is the purpose of our relationship to Him if others will never have one because of their hate, etc. under the context of universal reconciliation and the eventual realization of that love for them in the afterlife?

I guess I misunderstood your question. I thought that you were asking why anyone woiuld come to God now if he could "have his cake and eat it." The point is that the "cake" being "eaten" is nowhere near as good as the cake being offered, they are not the same. My point about scripture was not that people could not come to a relationship without it, but just the opposite: Christ and a relationship with God are not limited to the life and ministry of Jesus.

"What about those who don't find love or can love?" How long can they maintain that in the face of love offerred without stint or condition but that they realize it is what they really need?