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Euse, Lutherans have the "convenient" doctrine of single predestination. They believe that if you are saved, 100% of the credit goes to God. Essentially, if you are saved, it's because you were predestined for salvation. God created faith in your heart, and you had 0% to do with it.
On the other hand, if you are not saved, it is 100% your own fault. God doesn't want you to be eternally damned. Why doesn't God work saving faith in EVERYone's hearts, then, since God is 100% responsible for doing so, and since God wants everyone to be saved? :Shrug: Lutherans can't explain it, and they frankly admit that it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to: the bible says it (according to them) so they believe it. The end.
Hi Pleroo, It is one thing to attend to a Lutheran church and just assent to their doctrinal statements and as you well know, quite another thing for an attendee to actually enter into a real realization of the truth.
For instance, one can say by rote the apostles so-called creed each week or once a month and have the minister forgive you of your sins (that is how they do it at the Lutheran church in the town near here), and quite another to actually realize Christ actually died for your sins, that all your sins have been died for.
So if the minister and attendees at that Lutheran Church really, actually believed Christ really, actually died for their sins, that the sin question is done, they would not need a minister telling them "by the powers invested in me, I now forgive you of your sins" to the congregation.
So I was trying to get twin.spin to see if he just assents to a given tenet or actually 100% believes and realizes that belief.
Consequences? You just proved you do not even know what the point was.
Again,
- You can spend your life raping and pillaging (like Hitler did).
- And you hook up with the saints.
Since you deny this, then tell me how many WILL NOT hook up with the saints, and how you can claim everyone will be saved while saying some are not?
In Christianity, you can be Hitler and simply ask for forgiveness before you die. Instant access to heaven.
In Universalism, the whole world is reconciled to God regardless of what they do. The work is done by God not by man. Therefore, Hitler was "saved by grace" before he committed his crimes.
In Universalism, the whole world is reconciled to God regardless of what they do. The work is done by God not by man. Therefore, Hitler was "saved by grace" before he committed his crimes.
So, you agree with the statement.
Some universalists agree, some disagree.......
Quote:
In Christianity, you can be Hitler and simply ask for forgiveness before you die. Instant access to heaven.
Yes, Christianity teaches a different message than universalism. The thief on the cross did exactly what you describe.
Consequences? You just proved you do not even know what the point was.
Again,
- You can spend your life raping and pillaging (like Hitler did).
- And you hook up with the saints.
Since you deny this, then tell me how many WILL NOT hook up with the saints, and how you can claim everyone will be saved while saying some are not?
Let's try to break through one more time: Yes, "consequences." YOU think that the "consequences" MUST be eternal in order for them to BE consequences. That is not the case, and if it were the case, the "consequences" would ONLY be petty revenge. God is not petty. Whatever happens after physical death, there must be an opportunity to realize the error of living the way you did, remorse for the pain you caused and a means of coming into community..... exactly the same thing that happens in life.
Let's try to break through one more time: Yes, "consequences." YOU think that the "consequences" MUST be eternal in order for them to BE consequences. That is not the case, and if it were the case, the "consequences" would ONLY be petty revenge. God is not petty. Whatever happens after physical death, there must be an opportunity to realize the error of living the way you did, remorse for the pain you caused and a means of coming into community..... exactly the same thing that happen n life.
You are still not getting it
Feel free to discuss "consequence", if you find it intriguing. I'd rather stick with the point I made.
PS. There is no need for you to speculate about I think. I already know what I think.
Yes, Christianity teaches a different message than universalism. The thief on the cross did exactly what you describe.
I didn't say I agree or disagree. I am pointing out the difference. The bible states that salvation is without works, ie asking for forgiveness. The bible also states one is saved by grace. These tenets (and others) are what Universalism takes seriously while Christianity does not.
My opinion is that Universalism is much more bible-based than general Christianity on this issue.
According to universalism nothing is required. No need to love God or your neighbor. Spend your life raping and pillaging, and then hook up with the saints in heaven.
The bold is the CENTRAL belief of Christian Universalism, Finn. So your accusation is a lie.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Is it evil to ask that you and Finn NOT repeatedly lie about our beliefs, Cyber??? We know what we believe and do not believe. You and Finn have no right to lie about that . . . for ANY reason.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It is not a lie, it is what universalism boils down to. I have asked universalists if they expect to meet Hitler in heaven, and they said "of course we do".
If you disagree, please tell me who will NOT hook up with the saints in heaven?
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Originally Posted by nateswift
The people who remain as obdurate as you are as long as they remain as obdurate as you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
No, Finn, I'm not making it about you, I am addressing the point using you as an example. You have been told countless times that physical death is not the end of our existence in relation to God, and that He will not punish with nothing more in mind than revenge. That you keep saying that we teach that there are no consequences to selfish behavior is what is known as obdurate in the face of reason, and those people who remain obdurately selfish will remain self-separated from God until they come to their senses. We are offering you another chance to come to your senses about what is being taught.
You are obdurate, Finn. "Boils down" in whose estimation, Finn? Yours??? It boils down to no such thing. If we are not sanctified under Christ's perfect agape love for us all . . we will reap what we sow . . . but no more and no less than we sow.
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Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Finn, did Jesus change your heart?
What makes you think anyone else is any different from you?
To believe that God WILL reach the depths of darkness in a human soul and change that soul and change that heart forever is the view that glorifies our beautiful Creator, Finn.
Not that one that says.."your heart is too dark. you are a hopeless case. the light cannot reach..."
The problem with your (and many other's view) is that you apparently do not see this life as a journey or learning experience with your FELLOW MAN. You seem to see it is as a black and white "do this thing, or say that thing, or believe this thing and you won't be annihilated or go to hell" system. That system you think you are living in, does NOT exist, Finn. It NEVER has. The pharisees, etc.. kept that system alive and well. Jesus tore it down. Yet people keep picking up the crumbled bricks of that old institution and keep trying to rebuild it. You stand inside the crumbling walls, looking out... and cannot understand the true freedom of Christ. I wish you could come outside of those walls. The same walls that enclose the heart, come out of those walls and see the beauty of God's all-encompassing love. That love which is the saviour of all mankind.
Peace to you, Finn.
sparrow
Beautiful witness, as usual sparrow! Sadly I fear it will fall on blind eyes.
Universalism is not a threat to Christianity. It is only a threat to those who want to keep living however they want to live with no regard to one of the greatest blessings of the Gospel - victory over sin. They will be in for a sad surprise when Jesus Christ says to depart from Him.
We should not be surprised that this false gospel has reared its evil head again. It was going on in the beginning. The old tricks are the best tricks.
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2 Corinthians 11 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
The bold is the CENTRAL belief of Christian Universalism, Finn. So your accusation is a lie.
It is true, and your endless accusations are getting tiresome. Most forums ban people for continually calling other posters liars. Unfortunately it also shows your primary emotion is anger, the fruit of the evil one.
If everyone is saved, then OBVIOUSLY nothing is needed. It is very simple logic.
Or are you saying if you fail to be loving enough, then you will not be saved? You can't have it both ways.
Universalism is not a threat to Christianity. It is only a threat to those who want to keep living however they want to live with no regard to one of the greatest blessings of the Gospel - victory over sin. They will be in for a sad surprise when Jesus Christ says to depart from Him.
We should not be surprised that this false gospel has reared its evil head again. It was going on in the beginning. The old tricks are the best tricks.
I agree, that's why we Universalists are doing our best to show their (those who believe in eternal torment) false gospel for what it is: false and hopefully save some from their false belief system.
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Sadly I fear it will fall on blind eyes.