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Hi Pleroo, It is one thing to attend to a Lutheran church and just assent to their doctrinal statements and as you well know, quite another thing for an attendee to actually enter into a real realization of the truth.
For instance, one can say by rote the apostles so-called creed each week or once a month and have the minister forgive you of your sins (that is how they do it at the Lutheran church in the town near here), and quite another to actually realize Christ actually died for your sins, that all your sins have been died for.
So if the minister and attendees at that Lutheran Church really, actually believed Christ really, actually died for their sins, that the sin question is done, they would not need a minister telling them "by the powers invested in me, I now forgive you of your sins" to the congregation.
How very un-Lutheran of them that would be. Lutherans believe that the clergy (via the church) has been given the Office of the Keys ... in Jesus' stead they either absolve people of their sins, or withhold forgiveness from them if they are unrepentant. Of course, forgiveness is only efficacious for those who actually trust in the vicarious atonement of Jesus for the sins of the world. And they can only trust in that atonement if God has created faith in their hearts.
So, yes Lutherans believe all your sins "have been died for", but that's only part of the Lutheran story.
The bold is the CENTRAL belief of Christian Universalism, Finn. So your accusation is a lie.
You are obdurate, Finn. "Boils down" in whose estimation, Finn? Yours??? It boils down to no such thing. If we are not sanctified under Christ's perfect agape love for us all . . we will reap what we sow . . . but no more and no less than we sow.
Beautiful witness, as usual sparrow! Sadly I fear it will fall on blind eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It is true, and your endless accusations are getting tiresome. Most forums ban people for continually calling other posters liars. Unfortunately it also shows your primary emotion is anger, the fruit of the evil one.
You are making claims about what WE believe. How is it that YOU are the authority on what WE believe, Finn. When you make those accusations that contradict what WE believe they are lies and you are an accuser of the brethren . . . a fruit of the evil one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
If everyone is saved, then OBVIOUSLY nothing is needed. It is very simple logic.
Or are you saying if you fail to be loving enough, then you will not be saved? You can't have it both ways.
You are confusing two separate issues. Our salvation is from permanent separation from God. Jesus prevented that . . . so we are saved from it. Our fate and status before God is dependent on our sanctification under Christ's perfect agape love (Grace) as cover for our imperfections. We achieve that by love of God and each other every day and repenting when we don't. If we do NOT . . . we will reap what we sow . . . but no more and no less than we sow.
How very un-Lutheran of them that would be. Lutherans believe that the clergy (via the church) has been given the Office of the Keys ... in Jesus' stead they either absolve people of their sins, or withhold forgiveness from them if they are unrepentant. Of course, forgiveness is only efficacious for those who actually trust in the vicarious atonement of Jesus for the sins of the world. And they can only trust in that atonement if God has created faith in their hearts.
So, yes Lutherans believe all your sins "have been died for", but that's only part of the Lutheran story.
Yet Lutheran of them it is. I've been to some of their services.
I doubt all Lutherans believe all their sins have been died for.
If they feel they have to get forgiveness from another human, they don't believe Christ died for their sins.
Yet Lutheran of them it is. I've been to some of their services.
I doubt all Lutherans believe all their sins have been died for.
If they feel they have to get forgiveness from another human, they don't believe Christ died for their sins.
I believe you misunderstood. I didn't say you wouldn't hear that in a Lutheran service. Of course you would, and I explained why.
They do not believe they are getting forgiveness from another person, but rather from God.
You are making claims about what WE believe. How is it that YOU are the authority on what WE believe, Finn. When you make those accusations that contradict what WE believe they are lies and you are an accuser of the brethren . . . a fruit of the evil one.
I have not accused anyone of anything. I am saying what all universalists are saying. Everyone is saved. It is strange you are denying this?
The fact that you are so ashamed of you own beliefs should tell you something.
You have not been able to prove me wrong, and instead you lash out with anger and accusations. That is an ancient form of deflection.
Yet Lutheran of them it is. I've been to some of their services.
I doubt all Lutherans believe all their sins have been died for.
If they feel they have to get forgiveness from another human, they don't believe Christ died for their sins.
Conservative Lutheranism is a complex system of contradictions and logical gaps. Conservative Lutherans even admit that it's not logical and that a childlike faith must prevail over reason. Luther famously called reason "the devil's *****." That's why Lutherans have things like election to salvation (but not to damnation) and forgiveness of sins from the pastor (even though they believe that only God can forgive sins).
Conservative Lutheranism is a complex system of contradictions and logical gaps. Conservative Lutherans even admit that it's not logical and that a childlike faith must prevail over reason. Luther famously called reason "the devil's *****.". That's why Lutherans have things like election to salvation (but not to damnation) and forgiveness of sins from the pastor (even though they believe that only God can forgive sins).
Right. That's really the point I was trying to make to Euse. Asking Twin to see the logical gaps in his beliefs isn't likely to accomplish much. Like any good Lutheran, he knows they are there, and it doesn't matter.
Conservative Lutheranism is a complex system of contradictions and logical gaps. Conservative Lutherans even admit that it's not logical and that a childlike faith must prevail over reason. Luther famously called reason "the devil's *****.". That's why Lutherans have things like election to salvation (but not to damnation) and forgiveness of sins from the pastor (even though they believe that only God can forgive sins).
I couldn't live with hypocrisy like that. Let's see, according to Lutherans, Christ died for our sins but in reality . . . ummm . . . some sins are not forgiven if the minister doesn't forgive them so Christ didn't die for all our sins. And that raises the question, who is going to pronounce the exact percentage of sins He died for? Was it 62.431%? or maybe 75%? But surely not 100%! No wonder people are so screwed up in the head!
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Lutherans believe that the clergy (via the church) has been given the Office of the Keys ... in Jesus' stead they either absolve people of their sins, or withhold forgiveness from them if they are unrepentant. Of course, forgiveness is only efficacious for those who actually trust in the vicarious atonement of Jesus for the sins of the world. And they can only trust in that atonement if God has created faith in their hearts.
Sadly I fear it will fall on blind eyes.