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Oh wow, my illusteration doesn't meet all possible scenatios. Does that change the point? Are you saying that whether a person accepted God's grace or not he's going to get saved? Yes, that is the ridiculous contention of those who have to have God micromanaging everything for his cute little puppets.
Are you saying that if someone is drowning, you would throw a life ring then leave? Are you saying that God is that type of being? He cares for you... He loves you... but if you are drowning... here's your life ring and good luck!
In one sense: that it requires the assent and cooperation of the individual. It's soert of like someone in a stormy sea getting tossed a lifering. He has to grab it, but that doesn't mean he saved himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Not if you're looking at this from the Lutheran mindset, though. We were taught everyone is spiritually DEAD, completely incapable of doing anything whatsoever to save themselves. Dead people don't grab onto things.
True, but very few Lutherans are Arminians, and the post was in answer to a point about the different perspective of Arminius. That's ok, katjonjj missed that too.
Are you saying that if someone is drowning, you would throw a life ring then leave? Are you saying that God is that type of being? He cares for you... He loves you... but if you are drowning... here's your life ring and good luck!
No, I'm saying that nobody is dead and that we all have a choice. That God will not fetch us to Him until WE are ready.
True, but very few Lutherans are Arminians, and the post was in answer to a point about the different perspective of Arminius. That's ok, katjonjj missed that too.
I got that. I was just bouncing it back to Twin. Sorry. Carry on with your Smackdown.
No, I'm saying that nobody is dead and that we all have a choice. That God will not fetch us to Him until WE are ready.
But it was your analogy... When is a drowning person ready to be saved? When they are almost drowned? Mostly drowned? Fully drowned?
A person drowning (in sin) is in need of salvation... Wouldn't you think God would save them (by grace) before they would even need it or realize it? And what is with choice? Is our will greater than God's?
I think it'd be hilarious to have a series of Onion style videos called Theological Smackdown with famous theologians like Luther and Calvin fighting it out in full WWE garb. Instead of throwing punches, they'd "smack each other down" with various proof-texts. Meanwhile, announcers would narrate whole the thing: "wow...Luther really nailed him with 1 Corinthians 3:15...Calvin should have been on the lookout for that...surely one of Luther's favorite moves...what do you think, Jim?"
You could have a whole series: one fight over faith vs. works, one over predestination vs. free will, etc. Someone could really have a field day with it.
But it was your analogy... When is a drowning person ready to be saved? When they are almost drowned? Mostly drowned? Fully drowned?
A person drowning (in sin) is in need of salvation... Wouldn't you think God would save them (by grace) before they would even need it or realize it? And what is with choice? Is our will greater than God's?
A person is ready to be saved when he realizes he is in trouble. God seems to want us to come to Him on our own rather that be our puppet-master. I for one can understand that.
A person is ready to be saved when he realizes he is in trouble. God seems to want us to come to Him on our own rather that be our puppet-master. I for one can understand that.
He seems to? Where does he seem to want humans to come to him?
Eph. 2 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…
It seems God actually saves those who are dead... drowning in sin. Doesn't say "when they are ready" or "when they come to God."
How can you understand God?
Romans 11:34 "For who can know the LORD's thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?"
Well, I don't see that verse as saying "made us alive whether we wanted to be or not." On the other hand Peter said:The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Don't make too much of the use of "dead," that author is not talking about being unaware.
Btw that last quote seems to get trotted out wheneve people know that their doctrine doesn't make a lick of sense.
I think it'd be hilarious to have a series of Onion style videos called Theological Smackdown with famous theologians like Luther and Calvin fighting it out in full WWE garb. Instead of throwing punches, they'd "smack each other down" with various proof-texts. Meanwhile, announcers would narrate whole the thing: "wow...Luther really nailed him with 1 Corinthians 3:15...Calvin should have been on the lookout for that...surely one of Luther's favorite moves...what do you think, Jim?"
You could have a whole series: one fight over faith vs. works, one over predestination vs. free will, etc. Someone could really have a field day with it.
You realize you can get the written version of this series by going to most any Christian forum, right?
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