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Old 06-02-2015, 07:36 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Of course He did. The Scriptures are clear on this.

The Scriptures are equally clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world. You have already been shown Scripture that states this in post #28.

Only Jesus who alone was without sin and therefore not under the penalty of sin was qualified to pay the penalty for sin on behalf of the human race which was dead in its sins.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


Jesus came into the world primarily to die for the sins of the world. God's love for the world prompted Him to send Christ into the world to die for our sins in our place as our substitute. Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross satisfied or propitiated the righteous demands of the Father.

Yes, God is love, He is merciful, and He is just. And that is why He sent His Son into the world to die as our substitute. Because God is righteous and just He must punish sin. The penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God, ultimately in the lake of fire for those who reject God's plan of salvation. Because God is love He doesn't desire that anyone perish. But when His offer of salvation is rejected then His justice must leave under condemnation those who have rejected it.
Jesus dies because of the sin in the world..FEAR, arrogance, HATE, suscpicion, DOUBT and mostly because of POWER and WEALTH (status)

IF Jesus died for mine and others' sins, then we are SINLESS. We are no longer GUILTY of sinning and we are no longer under the LAW (this is true regardless of why Christ died).

How can we continue to ask forgiveness when all sin has been bought with the human sacrifiec of Jesus?
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:15 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Of course He did. The Scriptures are clear on this.

The Scriptures are equally clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world. You have already been shown Scripture that states this in post #28.

Only Jesus who alone was without sin and therefore not under the penalty of sin was qualified to pay the penalty for sin on behalf of the human race which was dead in its sins.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


Jesus came into the world primarily to die for the sins of the world. God's love for the world prompted Him to send Christ into the world to die for our sins in our place as our substitute. Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross satisfied or propitiated the righteous demands of the Father.

Yes, God is love, He is merciful, and He is just. And that is why He sent His Son into the world to die as our substitute. Because God is righteous and just He must punish sin. The penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God, ultimately in the lake of fire for those who reject God's plan of salvation. Because God is love He doesn't desire that anyone perish. But when His offer of salvation is rejected then His justice must leave under condemnation those who have rejected it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Jesus dies because of the sin in the world..FEAR, arrogance, HATE, suscpicion, DOUBT and mostly because of POWER and WEALTH (status)

IF Jesus died for mine and others' sins, then we are SINLESS. We are no longer GUILTY of sinning and we are no longer under the LAW (this is true regardless of why Christ died).

How can we continue to ask forgiveness when all sin has been bought with the human sacrifiec of Jesus?
The Bible plainly states that Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24) and that He died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3). Paul states that God made Jesus to be sin for us.
2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us (on our behalf), so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Jesus told His disciples that His death was for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28] for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
How much more clear can that be?


But the fact that Jesus died for our sins does not mean that we are sinless. It means that our sins have been paid for and are not the issue in eternal salvation. The issue is whether a person will receive Christ as Savior by trusting in His finished redemptive work on the cross on our behalf. Jesus is our Savior because He died for our sins in our place, as our substitute. He paid the penalty for our sins which we could never pay. As a result of Christ dying for our sins, the barrier between God and man that sin created has been removed. God is satisfied or propitiated with the work of Christ on the cross on our behalf and man is reconciled to God. Reconciliation which refers to peace between God and man involves the sum total of Christ's redemptive work as He hung on the cross and was judged for our sins. Reconciliation doesn't mean that everyone is automatically saved, but that salvation is available to anyone who will receive Christ as Savior.

Redemption is sinward: (Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19)
Propitiation is Godward: (Rom. 3:22-26; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)
Reconciliation is manward: (2 Cor. 5:18; Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:20-22)

The sins of the world were judged at the cross and the certificate of debt caused by our sins was canceled and taken out of the way, having been nailed to the cross. Our sins were judicially forgiven at the cross.
Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
We aren't made alive together with Christ until we believe on Him (Eph. 2:1-9), but our being made alive with Christ at he moment of faith in Christ is possible because our sins were judged and forgiven in a judicial sense at the cross. But there is another sense in which sins need to be forgiven, and that is in a relational sense. In the sense of fellowship. The unbeliever's sins are forgiven in a relational sense when he first believes on Christ which puts him in fellowship with God (Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18). And when as a believer he sins, his sins are forgiven in the relational sense of having fellowship with God when he simply confesses, names, cites, identifies, or acknowledges the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Sin puts the believer out of fellowship and grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). But because all sins were judged and judicially forgiven at the cross, the believer's sins are forgiven in that sense of being restored to fellowship when he simply names the sin to God. And that's grace.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins on the cross and paid the penalty for them that was due us. Only by His substitutionary death on our behalf could God offer eternal salvation to man.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:51 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Bible plainly states that Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24) and that He died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3). Paul states that God made Jesus to be sin for us.
2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us (on our behalf), so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Jesus told His disciples that His death was for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28] for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
How much more clear can that be?


But the fact that Jesus died for our sins does not mean that we are sinless. It means that our sins have been paid for and are not the issue in eternal salvation. The issue is whether a person will receive Christ as Savior by trusting in His finished redemptive work on the cross on our behalf. Jesus is our Savior because He died for our sins in our place, as our substitute. He paid the penalty for our sins which we could never pay. As a result of Christ dying for our sins, the barrier between God and man that sin created has been removed. God is satisfied or propitiated with the work of Christ on the cross on our behalf and man is reconciled to God. Reconciliation which refers to peace between God and man involves the sum total of Christ's redemptive work as He hung on the cross and was judged for our sins. Reconciliation doesn't mean that everyone is automatically saved, but that salvation is available to anyone who will receive Christ as Savior.

Redemption is sinward: (Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19)
Propitiation is Godward: (Rom. 3:22-26; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)
Reconciliation is manward: (2 Cor. 5:18; Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:20-22)

The sins of the world were judged at the cross and the certificate of debt caused by our sins was canceled and taken out of the way, having been nailed to the cross. Our sins were judicially forgiven at the cross.
Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
We aren't made alive together with Christ until we believe on Him (Eph. 2:1-9), but our being made alive with Christ at he moment of faith in Christ is possible because our sins were judged and forgiven in a judicial sense at the cross. But there is another sense in which sins need to be forgiven, and that is in a relational sense. In the sense of fellowship. The unbeliever's sins are forgiven in a relational sense when he first believes on Christ which puts him in fellowship with God (Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18). And when as a believer he sins, his sins are forgiven in the relational sense of having fellowship with God when he simply confesses, names, cites, identifies, or acknowledges the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Sin puts the believer out of fellowship and grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). But because all sins were judged and judicially forgiven at the cross, the believer's sins are forgiven in that sense of being restored to fellowship when he simply names the sin to God. And that's grace.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins on the cross and paid the penalty for them that was due us. Only by His substitutionary death on our behalf could God offer eternal salvation to man.


Somehow human sacrifice is so barbaric.

As God, can He not do whatever he wants and just say we have eternal salvation? What is with all this blood offering and death--something God claims (according to the MEN who wrote the OT) hates..

Hosea 6:6 ESV

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.


2 Kings 23:20-25 ESV

And he sacrificed all the priests of the high places who were there, on the altars, and burned human bones on them. Then he returned to Jerusalem. And the king commanded all the people, “Keep the Passover to the Lord your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant.” For no such Passover had been kept since the days of the judges who judged Israel, or during all the days of the kings of Israel or of the kings of Judah. But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah this Passover was kept to the Lord in Jerusalem. Moreover, Josiah put away the mediums and the necromancers and the household gods and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might establish the words of the law that were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord. ...
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Somehow human sacrifice is so barbaric.

As God, can He not do whatever he wants and just say we have eternal salvation? What is with all this blood offering and death--something God claims (according to the MEN who wrote the OT) hates..

Hosea 6:6 ESV

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.


2 Kings 23:20-25 ESV

And he sacrificed all the priests of the high places who were there, on the altars, and burned human bones on them. Then he returned to Jerusalem. And the king commanded all the people, “Keep the Passover to the Lord your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant.†For no such Passover had been kept since the days of the judges who judged Israel, or during all the days of the kings of Israel or of the kings of Judah. But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah this Passover was kept to the Lord in Jerusalem. Moreover, Josiah put away the mediums and the necromancers and the household gods and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might establish the words of the law that were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord. ...
There are things which God can't do. He can't do anything which is contrary to His nature. He can't compromise any facet of His essence. While God is love, He is also righteous. Therefore, any plan of salvation which God can offer fallen mankind in love must also satisfy the demands of His righteousness and not compromise it. Because God is love He does not desire that anyone should perish. But because He is also absolute perfect righteousness He cannot have anything to do with sin and must punish it. Because God is infinitely holy and sin violates His righteousness, any sin carries an infinite penalty.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. Adam's original sin resulted in immediate spiritual death for him which in turn eventually brought about physical death. Despite the fact that God loved Adam He had to condemn Him. But God, knowing that Adam would sin and that that sin would result in condemnation for the entire human race had determined a plan of salvation in eternity past. Adam's sin did not catch God by surprise. It had always been God's plan to send the Second Person of the Trinity into the world as a member of the human race in order to pay the penalty for man's sin which sinful man could not pay himself and would therefore result in eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

Only a man who himself was free from sin could pay for the sins of his fellow man. Since Jesus came into the world by a virgin birth He avoided being born with a sin nature and with the stain of Adam's sin. And since He lived a life free from sin He was qualified to go to the cross and bear our sins in His own body and be judged in our place.

God's righteousness demanded spiritual death as the penalty for sin. There was no way around that short of God compromising His perfect righteousness which He simply could not do. So in love, and in meeting the demands of His perfect righteousness He sent Christ into the world, which Christ agreed to do, to die for us and make salvation possible.

It was not His physical death which paid the penalty for our sins, but His spiritual death which lasted for about three hours from 12 noon to 3 PM during which time God poured out His judgment on our sins as Jesus bore them in His body. During that time the Father had to turn His back as it were on Jesus. He had to forsake Him. That was Jesus' spiritual death. Jesus was still alive physically when He said, 'It has been finished.' He then dismissed His spirit from His body and died not only because His redemptive work was done, and not only because He could not return to heaven in His mortal body, but because He had to die physically in order to be the first fruits of those who are to be resurrected in Him.

Regarding Hosea 6:6, it was God Himself who instituted the Levitical animal sacrifices (Leviticus chapters 1-7) as a type or picture of the work of the future Messiah - Jesus on the cross. Those animal sacrifices were a part of the Mosaic Law. But in the context of Hosea the people were faithless and disloyal to God and so the sacrifices were meaningless and even offensive to God (1 Sam. 15:22; Isa. 1:11-20; Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8). God valued loyalty and knowledge of Him rather than sacrifices. As stated however, the very purpose of those animal sacrifices was to demonstrate in a very graphic way the future sacrifice of Christ on the cross. As stated in Hebrews chapter 10;
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3] But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5] Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God, as it is written of Me in the scroll of the book.’â€
8] When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings†(these are offered according to the law),
9]
then he added, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.†He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
10] By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
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Old 06-05-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are things which God can't do. He can't do anything which is contrary to His nature. He can't compromise any facet of His essence. While God is love, He is also righteous.
And His nature led Him to specifically state that each man shall die for His own sins, that no one else may die for them and that He never asked anyone to sacrifice a human to Him and that it never entered His mind to do so...
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:23 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,075,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are things which God can't do. He can't do anything which is contrary to His nature. He can't compromise any facet of His essence. While God is love, He is also righteous. Therefore, any plan of salvation which God can offer fallen mankind in love must also satisfy the demands of His righteousness and not compromise it. Because God is love He does not desire that anyone should perish. But because He is also absolute perfect righteousness He cannot have anything to do with sin and must punish it. Because God is infinitely holy and sin violates His righteousness, any sin carries an infinite penalty.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. Adam's original sin resulted in immediate spiritual death for him which in turn eventually brought about physical death. Despite the fact that God loved Adam He had to condemn Him. But God, knowing that Adam would sin and that that sin would result in condemnation for the entire human race had determined a plan of salvation in eternity past. Adam's sin did not catch God by surprise. It had always been God's plan to send the Second Person of the Trinity into the world as a member of the human race in order to pay the penalty for man's sin which sinful man could not pay himself and would therefore result in eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

Only a man who himself was free from sin could pay for the sins of his fellow man. Since Jesus came into the world by a virgin birth He avoided being born with a sin nature and with the stain of Adam's sin. And since He lived a life free from sin He was qualified to go to the cross and bear our sins in His own body and be judged in our place.

God's righteousness demanded spiritual death as the penalty for sin. There was no way around that short of God compromising His perfect righteousness which He simply could not do. So in love, and in meeting the demands of His perfect righteousness He sent Christ into the world, which Christ agreed to do, to die for us and make salvation possible.

It was not His physical death which paid the penalty for our sins, but His spiritual death which lasted for about three hours from 12 noon to 3 PM during which time God poured out His judgment on our sins as Jesus bore them in His body. During that time the Father had to turn His back as it were on Jesus. He had to forsake Him. That was Jesus' spiritual death. Jesus was still alive physically when He said, 'It has been finished.' He then dismissed His spirit from His body and died not only because His redemptive work was done, and not only because He could not return to heaven in His mortal body, but because He had to die physically in order to be the first fruits of those who are to be resurrected in Him.

Regarding Hosea 6:6, it was God Himself who instituted the Levitical animal sacrifices (Leviticus chapters 1-7) as a type or picture of the work of the future Messiah - Jesus on the cross. Those animal sacrifices were a part of the Mosaic Law. But in the context of Hosea the people were faithless and disloyal to God and so the sacrifices were meaningless and even offensive to God (1 Sam. 15:22; Isa. 1:11-20; Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8). God valued loyalty and knowledge of Him rather than sacrifices. As stated however, the very purpose of those animal sacrifices was to demonstrate in a very graphic way the future sacrifice of Christ on the cross. As stated in Hebrews chapter 10;
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3] But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5] Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God, as it is written of Me in the scroll of the book.’”
8] When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law),
9]
then he added, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
10] By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Because God is infinitely holy and sin violates His righteousness

And yet, we are said to be born in "sin," therefore, that logically says that God created us in SIN, and created us WITH SIN...
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:25 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Because God is infinitely holy and sin violates His righteousness

And yet, we are said to be born in "sin," therefore, that logically says that God created us in SIN, and created us WITH SIN...
Nah...Where does it state that we are born in sin?...
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
And His nature led Him to specifically state that each man shall die for His own sins, that no one else may die for them and that He never asked anyone to sacrifice a human to Him and that it never entered His mind to do so...
You take passages out of their context and attempt use them to argue against the substitutionary death of Christ. You take passages such at Deut. 24:16, 2 Chron. 25:4, and Jer. 31:30 which refer to the fact that under the Mosaic Law, a man must take responsibility for his own sins and in cases of capital punishment (physical death) be put to death for his own sins, and not for the sins of another. This has absolutely nothing to do with God sending Christ into the world to die for the sins of the world in order to provide eternal salvation from the lake of fire for those who believe on Him.


You totally ignore the fact that Isaiah 53, even if you try to argue that it refers to the nation Israel, which it doesn't, it refers to the Messiah, clearly speaks of one bearing the guilt, the transgressions, the iniquities of others.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And be His scourging we are healed.

6] All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

10] But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

11] As a result of the anguish of His soul He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sins of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Here is God's servant bearing and carrying the griefs and sorrows of others, being pierced through for the transgressions of others. Here is the LORD causing the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. Here we see God's righteous servant rendering Himself as a guilt offering, bearing the sins of many and interceding on the behalf of the transgressors and dying for them.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:01 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nah...Where does it state that we are born in sin?...
ask y@$*g mike..it was his quote....
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Because God is infinitely holy and sin violates His righteousness

And yet, we are said to be born in "sin," therefore, that logically says that God created us in SIN, and created us WITH SIN...
No, God didn't create us in sin. Adam was created without sin. He chose to disobey God's command and therefore entered into sin. Since Adam was the federal head of the human race which was seminally in him, God viewed the entire human race as having participated in Adam's sin. Everyone is born physically alive but spiritually dead because he inherits the genetically transmitted old sin nature to which God imputes Adam's sin when that person is born. Jesus was born free from the stain of Adam's sin because of His virgin birth. The old sin nature is passed down through the male.

Though the body is the product of procreation, man's immaterial soul is directly created by God and imparted to the body at birth. While there is biological life in the womb, there is no soul life until the soul is imparted at birth (some think at conception). Though the soul is created perfect, when it comes into contact with the old sin nature which resides in the body, the result is physical life but spiritual death.
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