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Old 06-18-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,316,111 times
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Z-man


Quote:
Really need to READ what Paul babbled about..


So it looks like in one area you agree with me, that being that Jesus words are what we are to listen to.
So what does Jesus say concerning those who follow Him.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Without a doubt no follower of Jesus Christ has more evil spoken against them then Paul. So what you call babel Jesus called blessed. Something you might want to remember.


Was Paul perfect? No, and he never claimed to be, what he claimed was that he pressed towards the high calling in Christ.

So lets look at your scriptures.

Before we start keep this in mind. Paul's writings were written before the gospels; therefore Paul would not be disagreeing with Jesus if there was a disagreement. The writers of the gospels would be disagreeing with what Paul said.

Also keep in mind Paul did not have much to do with the other apostle, spoke to them a few times, but on the whole Paul only knew of Jesus Christ by what God had revealed to him. Thus they might have had a slightly different view of Jesus. Reason being Paul only knew the resurrected Jesus; whereas the other knew Jesus in the flesh.


Quote:
Equality for Women: Paul was very anti-woman. He ordered that they not be allowed to speak in the churches (1Cor 14:34-45) and that they stay home and take care of the kids (1Timothy 5:14), and that wives should be submissive to the mastery of their husbands (Ephesians 2:12; 5:22-24 and Colossians 3:18-19).



First let me say that I was raised by preachers, both parents ministers of the gospel. So I know a woman is not to keep silent in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Now reading this in a straight forward reading might look like Paul was saying what you think he was saying, However Paul goes on to say:

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

In Paul's day woman basically had no rights, heck it was like that for hundreds of years, and Paul is pointing the stupidity of that out to his listeners. Thus Paul challenged that thinking when he said.

WHAT? Came the word of God out of you? Or came it unto you ONLY.

Quote:
1 Timothy 5:14
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.



Ephesians 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18-19
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


You really need to reread those scriptures and keep this in mind.

Ephesians 5:31-32
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Does that sound like Paul is putting down women? Did he not say that the man and the woman would be ONE flesh?

Paul was not putting down woman bro/sis he was speaking of a great mystery concerning Christ and the church.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Basically Paul was telling every church member, male and female, to keep their mouths shut, they have nothing to say, and let Christ do all the teaching.

To make this even clearer it was Paul who said

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Paul put woman on the same playing field as men. Which backs up what I said concerning 1 Cor14.


Quote:
This, of course, is in direct opposition to Jesus, who elevated women — even women of lowly status such as prostitutes, Samaritans (woman by the well), and everyday women such as Mary and Martha — to a degree unprecedented for that time. Note that in Luke 10:38-42, Jesus even chastises Martha for accepting a traditional woman’s role, while he praises her sister Mary for choosing the “better part” of more active participation. This was obviously recognized by the women of that time, as Luke 8:2-3 lists the names of a number of prominent women of means who provided economic support for Jesus’ ministry.


Jesus also said.


Matthew 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Now if we understand this the way you are looking at Paul writings, Jesus placed this woman in the same category as a dog. Does not sound like Jesus thought very much of this woman. However we know that is not the understanding of what Jesus was getting at, don't we?



This

Quote:


Jesus teaches charity.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

has nothing to do with these scriptures you posted below.

Quote:
Paul is concerned that welfare is going to cost his church too much.
1Tim 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be burdened; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Already explain the Tim and Ephesians one, so lets look at 2Th 3:10

Did you actually read the whole chapter?

Just like today many able bodied people would rather stand in the welfare line and get a freebee then work to support themselves. Paul is telling them if they are able, to get off their rear ends and work for a living and stop what amount to stealing from those truly in need.

Galatians 2:9-10
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor;the same which I also was forward to do.
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,316,111 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
God said; "Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me."

If scripture cannot be discarded then Jesus was the approved servant of God,His son, not the only son of God in a numerical value. He was what the servant of God is suppose to be like. God wants everyone to serve Him and be His son.

It is written in the prophet's;

"I shall purify the lips of the people so they will all call upon the name of the Lord to serve Him with one accord."
I agree, Israel is not just the name of one person, it is also the name of a whole nation. In like manner Christ is more then just one person, Christ is a many membered body; Jesus being only the head of the body of Christ.
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Old 06-18-2015, 10:27 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,531,858 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I agree, Israel is not just the name of one person, it is also the name of a whole nation. In like manner Christ is more then just one person, Christ is a many membered body; Jesus being only the head of the body of Christ.
That is a dangerous opinion to have. I do not see how it can be correct at all.
Christ lived once on earth. He had one body. The body did not have many members.
You seem to be confusing the Bride of Christ with the Body of Christ, they are very
different by definition.
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Old 06-18-2015, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,644,620 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Really need to READ what Paul babbled about..

Equality for Women: Paul was very anti-woman. He ordered that they not be allowed to speak in the churches (1Cor 14:34-45) and that they stay home and take care of the kids (1Timothy 5:14), and that wives should be submissive to the mastery of their husbands (Ephesians 2:12; 5:22-24 and Colossians 3:18-19).

This, of course, is in direct opposition to Jesus, who elevated women — even women of lowly status such as prostitutes, Samaritans (woman by the well), and everyday women such as Mary and Martha — to a degree unprecedented for that time. Note that in Luke 10:38-42, Jesus even chastises Martha for accepting a traditional woman’s role, while he praises her sister Mary for choosing the “better part” of more active participation. This was obviously recognized by the women of that time, as Luke 8:2-3 lists the names of a number of prominent women of means who provided economic support for Jesus’ ministry.

Jesus teaches charity.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Paul is concerned that welfare is going to cost his church too much.
1Tim 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be burdened; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
There are quite a few textual critics that think I Cor 14:34-35 are a scribal addition. One of the earliest manuscripts of that letter has those two verses in the margin. Add to that the fact that three chapters earlier Paul writes that women CAN prophesy (preach/teach) in church with one cultural restiction--their heads should be covered. The contradictory verses three chapters later along with the marginal positioning of the critical two verses in one of the earliest manuscripts does lend credibility to the idea of a scribal addition.

Read I Cor. 14 leaving out verses 14-15. The surrounding verses (from my aging memory) involve keeping order in church services. It read seamlessly without the questionable verses.

For all the problems I see with Paul, I believe he probably treated women with much more respect than the culture in which he lived dictated.
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Old 06-18-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,316,111 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
That is a dangerous opinion to have. I do not see how it can be correct at all.
Christ lived once on earth. He had one body. The body did not have many members.
You seem to be confusing the Bride of Christ with the Body of Christ, they are very
different by definition.
Ya me and Paul are both heretics

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body:so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular



You also might want to read this link.

//www.city-data.com/forum/chris...dy-christ.html
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Old 06-18-2015, 12:56 PM
 
Location: US
32,529 posts, read 21,825,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
What do you think a commandment is?

The son of man says; "The Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to speak and since I know His commandment is eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me."

In the above verse Jesus is indicating that what God commanded the son of man to say is His commandment.
Nothing different from what's in the TNK...
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Old 06-18-2015, 12:57 PM
 
Location: US
32,529 posts, read 21,825,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
At the exclussion of Moses and Elijiah (the law and the prophets) God said this is my beloved son (Jesus) hear Him. case closed
That's what someone said that He said....
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Old 06-18-2015, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,316,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
That's what someone said that He said....
Ya ok and everything in the law was something someone said God gave to moses. You do realise there is no proof outside the bible that Moses, abe, Isaac and Jacob ever lived don't you. everything they were suppose to have said and done was written hundreds of years after the fact.

so take your quote and apply it to your own belief.
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Old 06-18-2015, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,316,111 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
There are quite a few textual critics that think I Cor 14:34-35 are a scribal addition. One of the earliest manuscripts of that letter has those two verses in the margin. Add to that the fact that three chapters earlier Paul writes that women CAN prophesy (preach/teach) in church with one cultural restiction--their heads should be covered. The contradictory verses three chapters later along with the marginal positioning of the critical two verses in one of the earliest manuscripts does lend credibility to the idea of a scribal addition.

Read I Cor. 14 leaving out verses 14-15. The surrounding verses (from my aging memory) involve keeping order in church services. It read seamlessly without the questionable verses.

For all the problems I see with Paul, I believe he probably treated women with much more respect than the culture in which he lived dictated.
I would not put it past them warden, these lying scribes have added many a thing to the scriptures attributing them to another in order for them to have weight.

However whether it is there or it is not I gave enough evidence showing Paul placed woman on the same playing field as men. Which hopefully will put that part of z-man's concern about Paul to rest.
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Old 06-18-2015, 01:37 PM
 
Location: US
32,529 posts, read 21,825,388 times
Reputation: 2225
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Ya ok and everything in the law was something someone said God gave to moses. You do realise there is no proof outside the bible that Moses, abe, Isaac and Jacob ever lived don't you. everything they were suppose to have said and done was written hundreds of years after the fact.

so take your quote and apply it to your own belief.
Yea...the road goes both ways....
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