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No, I am not looking for a single answer at all. I am asking you to please elaborate on what you wrote below.
Can you describe this intelligent design that is at work? Use one simple example if you must.
I am truly interested in hearing what someone who states this has to say about what they see with respect to an intelligent design at work.
What specifically do you see as an intelligent design?
What aspects make it an intelligent design?
Who is this intelligent designer?
What are their attributes?
If you don't have an interest to discuss the ID beliefs that you brought up, then this only tells me that you don't really know the answers to the questions I am asking.
Yet you try to brush it off with another one of your assumptions...deaf ears.
I would not be asking questions just to have it fall upon deaf ears.
Deoxyribonucleic, Ribonucleic (nucleic acids) with proteins and carbohydrates are essential ingredients for all known forms of life. But, why do we desire things like chocolate, vanilla or strawberry, or various answers to questions? Why do we have a conscience; and what makes things right or wrong?
Are we an inherent part of that something (or someone) that has brought everything into existence?
There are no simple one-liners from a "fortune cookie" that will give us the answer.
However, evolution in and of itself - is not adequate to solve all the mysteries of life.
- Interpretation of the bible evolves several hundred years after new scientific evidence is available that conflicts with the bible story. This seems to be true for social norms as well. Look how long it took to have women priests. The several branches of Christianity still won't allow women priests. As if women aren't equally or more connected to God than men. All this stems from the "fact" that none of the apostles were women. It won't change until the concept that women can't be as spiritual or faithful as a man is seen as absurd, by the vast majority of the Christians in that branch of faith.
This is not how science evolves.
I have no problem with your central premise expressed in the last line of your post. But the bias against females is a function of the male dominance at the time and the exclusion by men of women's versions of the writings. The relating of who was an apostle is equally biased because Mary Magdalene was purportedly the closest to Jesus and knew more than her male counterparts. In fact, her Gospel and her understanding of Christ's message have been completely eliminated from the Bible canon.
Thank you for this post. You asked a lot of good questions and it helps me to understand your thoughts better.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Deoxyribonucleic, Ribonucleic (nucleic acids) with proteins and carbohydrates are essential ingredients for all known forms of life.
In a nutshell…DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) simply carries our genetic code or instructions. RNA (Ribonucleic acid) simply reads this code and makes proteins which in turn make up living life forms. This is a very over simplified answer but it is the basis.
The reason we have DNA and RNA, is that living forms of life need to propagate or they become extinct. The only way for life to propagate is through the instructions found in DNA that are passed on sexually or asexually.
Here is a link with several very good explanations. The person who breaks it down the best is Joshua Engel, he is the 3rd one down.
But, why do we desire things like chocolate, vanilla or strawberry, or various answers to questions?
Two reasons. Mainly due to the receptors that are expressed on our taste buds…this is all based on your DNA. However over our lifetime we build many complex associations with flavors and scents that can override our DNA. For example I moved from Houston to CA. I love Tex Mex and can’t stand Cal Mex. You will find people who moved from CA to TX who can’t stand Tex Mex. I love smoked BBQ…this just does not exist in CA…what they pass off for BBQ here is awful tasting to me.
Here are some great websites that help to explain why we all have different tastes.
Consciousness is a very interesting topic, and much has been discovered about it in recent years. Here is a very easy (not highly technical or scientific) article that explains it fairly well. What is consciousness? A scientist
Also this website has a lot of good information. Click on the Publications Tab and you can find a lot of very good papers on the subject.
There is an overall basic right and wrong that is common unto all of us. Any behaviors that cause intentional harm or suffering to any creature, place or thing…is wrong. What’s great is that we have the ability as conscionable beings to sit down and work out issues of right and wrong.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Are we an inherent part of that something (or someone) that has brought everything into existence?
This is what puzzles me about ID believers. Where do you get the idea that we are an inherent part of someone/something that has brought everything into existence? We have a very clear idea of how solar systems form as well as how planets form including Earth. We now know how life evolves on Planet Earth. It’s a lot of science to learn and understand…which is why it makes it very difficult to help non-scientists understand all of this information. Science is fascinating and helps us to understand ourselves and the world we live in.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
There are no simple one-liners from a fortune cookie that will give us the answer.
I total agree. Science is complex, however many of what non-scientists see as mysteries are no longer mysteries. Sure there are still unanswered questions about the Universe but make no mistake that many of what you think are mysteries are really not mysteries. I hope that I have helped to clear up some of these for you in my response.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
However, evolution in and of itself - is not adequate to solve all the mysteries of life.
True. Evolution only solved how we came into existence and tells us a lot about who our ancestors were. It also solves the wonder surrounding all the diversity we see here on planet earth.
Evolution is no small contribution to our understanding of things but it certainly does not answer all of life's mysteries.
I want to make it clear that I am no science snob. However it is very difficult to have discussion with non-scientists over all these topics. I am more than willing to point anyone in the direction of anything that can help you understand the science behind anything that appears to be a mystery to you.
This is what puzzles me about ID believers. Where do you get the idea that we are an inherent part of someone/something that has brought everything into existence? We have a very clear idea of how solar systems form as well as how planets form including Earth. We now know how life evolves on Planet Earth. It’s a lot of science to learn and understand…which is why it makes it very difficult to help non-scientists understand all of this information. Science is fascinating and helps us to understand ourselves and the world we live in.
We get that idea because we ARE an inherent part of what has brought everything into existence. Reality itself has brought everything into existence and we are part of reality. This is what puzzles me about atheists . . . they have no idea what reality IS or why it is . . . but they are certain it is NOT God.
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Evolution only solved how we came into existence and tells us a lot about who our ancestors were. It also solves the wonder surrounding all the diversity we see here on planet earth.
Evolution is no small contribution to our understanding of things but it certainly does not answer all of life's mysteries.
It does not solve how we came into existence because it does not address how life came into existence. It only addresses how we evolved from more primitive life forms.
Quote:
I want to make it clear that I am no science snob. However it is very difficult to have discussion with non-scientists over all these topics. I am more than willing to point anyone in the direction of anything that can help you understand the science behind anything that appears to be a mystery to you.
LOL. You disclaim being a science snob and then proceed to prove yourself a liar by your snobbish attitude toward non-scientists. Intelligent non-scientists are perfectly capable of following scientific explanations.
We get that idea because we ARE an inherent part of what has brought everything into existence. Reality itself has brought everything into existence and we are part of reality.
This is what puzzles me about atheists . . . they have no idea what reality IS or why it is . . . but they are certain it is NOT God.
Again I am not an atheist. Also you can't assume that atheists have no idea what reality is or is not.
What reality are you talking about when you claim that reality is what has brought everything into existence?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It does not solve how we came into existence because it does not address how life came into existence. It only addresses how we evolved from more primitive life forms.
LOL. You disclaim being a science snob and then proceed to prove yourself a liar by your snobbish attitude toward non-scientists. Intelligent non-scientists are perfectly capable of following scientific explanations.
Pretty harsh and judgmental I would say. The only time I have displayed any type of attitude towards non-scientists is when they make absurd claims against scientific evidence. This is more the case than not.
Very few non-scientists have the ability to follow scientific explanations. This is why you find ID followers. They think they understand the science but fail to realize it's only pseudoscience.
Recall that you were confusing observable evolution with speciation. Sure intelligent non-scientists can understand scientific explanations but they tend to get it wrong at some level. This is more common than not.
If any non-scientist would care to learn vs. making absurd claims then I would be happy to help them.
Mat, many of us here have fought against this fundy understanding of the bible. We do not believe like the fundy that the bible is the "infallible, unaltered word of God". We believe the bible was written by men, just like us, and they made many errors in their understanding of God, the world and just about everything else.
However that is no difference then the way science began. Understanding in science changed as people came to a better understanding of what was taking place in them and the world around them. and this is the way many of us view the bible.
thus Your simply mixing us up with the fundy's and making an argument out of something we actually agree on. Try separating the two groups of Christians that are on this forum and address them accordingly. otherwise you will continue to make error in your judgment of what we do and do not believe.
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Originally Posted by nateswift
Good luck with that. M doesn't even recognize that parroting fundy ideas is only criticizing fundies.
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Originally Posted by nateswift
As I said, can't tell the difference and doesn't WANT to.
Yup, were dealing with a fundamental mindset who simply cannot see the difference. Because she cannot see the difference (which is obvious by her responses ) make one wonder if she even knows what she is talking about concerning science. After all she says science is hard to understand, whereas seeing the difference between the fundy's and us is not hard to see and yet she cannot see that which is easy.
You have no knowledge of this at all. My journey started with something better than your man created disgusting god.
Silly question. You are following a man created religion that has you believing in a very constrained way of thinking that there is only one way to go about spiritual development. All exclusiveness is exactly how cults operate.
The jealous vengeful, self serving god that you worship dares you to worship no other god but him. How is this spiritually uplifting to you?
The Christian God as presented in the Bible has got to be the most unpleasant characters in ALL FICTION writings…this fictitious God is Jealous and proud of it. Petty, vindictive unjust, unforgiving, racist and an ethnic cleanser urging his people on to acts of genocide.
It makes sense why religion has failed...you don't evolve spiritually by worshiping this type of god or reading horrific words written by man and then using it as a "holy" text.
Yep be proud to tout that you worship and follow the Bible. Kill your own brother, son, daughter, wife or closest friends if they choose to worship another god? WOW just WOW!!!!! This is truly sick.
Also did you miss reading this? A man offering his virgin daughter to be raped only to save the guest from being raped. Nice. That book is the sickest most evil book on planet earth.
Your holy text does not provide a moral framework for others to live by…because the holy texts you worship are of dubious origin’s and veracity and they’re internally contradictory.
You are a lost cause if you are making the claim that science is faith based.
If you don't understand that science is evidence based then there is nothing more to discuss.
You need to brush up on your vocabulary.
Faith is believe in something that has no evidence or proof....it's not even testable.
Evidence is data that is generated through experimentation or observation. It informs us as to whether something it true or not.
I don't have faith that gravity exits. I know and understand that it exists.
The point of science and the reason it works is because you don’t try and prove something that you like to be true…you also try and prove it to be false…and that is what is really important.
You don’t just find a way to say the rainbows are caused by some faith idea…you actually try and see if your ideas are wrong and ask what is more plausible based on evidence and inquiry.
LOL I said your journey did not start with God and you just confirmed what I said. Yet you say I have no idea
Like nate said you do not want to see the difference or even understand what we see. Take note of the underlined. I already explained that what we believe is not exclusiveness but ALL will get to the SAME spiritual enlightenment. Whereas what you believe about science seems to be an exclusive group for as you say us non-scientist cannot grasp the science. In other words you place yourselve in an exclusive group of the higher enlightened. And as you said All exclusiveness is exactly how cults operate.
You say you make the distinction between the fundy's and us then proceed to show you do not. the crap you wrote about above is ONLY applicable to what the fundy's believe, not what we believe.
Lol just as I figured you do not want to put you faith based science to a test.
Thanks, but I have been keeping this in perspective...it appears that I am simply dealing with a variety of fundys.
It is completely opposite of how science began and evolved.
The way the interpretation of the bible has evolved by the more open minded Christians is a bit different than how our scientific knowledge has evolved.
- Science evolves whenever a new discovery supported by evidence is shared that supports an idea or theory or whenever an observation disproves previous evidence.
- Interpretation of the bible evolves several hundred years after new scientific evidence is available that conflicts with the bible story. This seems to be true for social norms as well. Look how long it took to have women priests. The several branches of Christianity still won't allow women priests. As if women aren't equally or more connected to God than men. All this stems from the "fact" that none of the apostles were women. It won't change until the concept that women can't be as spiritual or faithful as a man is seen as absurd, by the vast majority of the Christians in that branch of faith.
This is not how science evolves.
Your responses tell us differently. You simply cannot see the difference, which makes it hard for any of us to have an intelligent conversation with you.
That has nothing to do with the bible, many people today who do not even believe in the God of the bible still have that same problem with women.
You fundys are so confused and misguided that your religion has you looking down on science.
You should be thankful for science or you would still be living in the Dark Ages.
Our current understanding of nature has changed and developed since the Bible Myth was first touted by Iron Age peasants who didn’t know that the Earth orbited the Sun…therefore it’s natural that science is inconsistent with those claims that were based on ignorance.
Why should we revere those ancient claims as sacred when they are based on ignorance?
It's intellectually lazy to stop asking questions and stop looking for physical explanation’s and just say God did it. This is exactly what fundys do.
Noting the inconsistencies between science and the bible is not fundyism. Claiming that science is wrong and that the bible is correct is as fundy as it gets.
You need to get this through your thick head, WE DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON SCIENCE. Many fundy's might but WE DO NOT.
Did you ever think that what you call the bible myth is nothing more than a parable? and that science in part is that which help us unlock the understanding of the parable? obviously not.
yep fundy's might just do that, but again we are NOT fundy's and until you can see the difference you will never understand what we believe.
I agree that is as fundy as it gets. However as has been stated several times by many of us WE ARE NOT FUNDY'S. Heck even the fundy's can see the difference between what we believe and they believe, many stating that we are not Christians because we refuse to believe as they do. You even stated I was not a Christian because I posted something that a fundy does not believe.
so pull your head out of the sand and you just might be able to have a good conversation with many of us. but until you learn to tell the difference between the fundy's and us that will never happen. the balls in your court.
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