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Matthew 19:7-8 -- "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Mark 7:10 -- For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[a] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b]
Mark 12:26 -- Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[a]? << Book of Moses = Torah>>
Luke 5:14 -- Then Jesus ordered him, "Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Luke 16:31 -- "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " << Jesus giving the parable of the rich man & Lazarus>> You also have to understand the OT scriptures were divided into three major parts: the Law (Torah), the Prophets (both major & minor), and the Psalms/writings.
John 5:46-47 -- If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
John 7:19 -- Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?" << Law of Moses = Torah>>
It is clear, at least to me, that Jesus referencing OT scripture first and foremost authenticates it as scripture and as truth and secondly confirms the authority of God's written word. Jesus lived His life by the scriptures. Jesus spoke on and taught using the 'Book of Moses' and the 'Law of Moses', both of which to Jews meant the Torah, which are the first five books of our bible. Jesus, God in the flesh, cannot lie for He is Truth. So Jesus believed and taught that Moses wrote the Torah and I believe Him.
Unfortunately, you are likely wasting your breath with many. There seems to be a very large portion of those posting on this forum who are of the, "Don't interupt my truth with your silly facts" metality.
Well I share more for the readers and have no desire to help those that refuse it. Like the S&P in Jesus' day, seems He had the same problem
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It never ceases to amaze me -- There are people who will instantly strike down anything that even begins to analyze "God's Perfect Word."
"God's Perfect Word." Where on earth did that concept come from? It most certainly does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Has anyone got any idea where that theory (made up doctrine in my opinion) comes from?
Yes, I accept the contents of the Bible as the writings of prophets and messengers of God. I am confident that they teach good and right things. But ... I don't know, it seems like to some people, the Bible itself is an object of worship and is handed the status of pseudo-deity.
Exactly, it is called bibleolotory and in fact there are many idols folk have they are just unwilling to admit, the cross is one of them. I would even go as far as saying, folk make Jesus an idol but that sounds like blasphemy, horror of horrors
In fact Jesus is the WAY, the doorWAY, the path to the Father. Most folk glory in the door and worship the path, but of course, the trinity myth makes it OK. See, I came to my faith by the teachings of Jesus but I met the Father the destination and the Object of Jesus' teachings.
It is ironic, how the Father's Love message is rejected by "christians" The unconditional element of His Love takes away all their traditions and election, kinda makes them less special than what they make themselves out to be. I am branded a heretic by these folk but so too was Jesus and Paul for that matter.
I was thinking about this a bit this weekend, and thought to myself - as much as I've posted myself on this forum and other forums within the past year - as well as as much as others have posted, I find it not very hard to believe that Moses did indeed write all 5 books. I'm sure I've written about 2-3 books worth of biblical material in the past 3-4 years that I've been posting on Christian Message boards.. Besides, what else would Moses be doing in his down time all those years in the wilderness?
Unfortunately, you are likely wasting your breath with many. There seems to be a very large portion of those posting on this forum who are of the, "Don't interupt my truth with your silly facts" metality.
It never ceases to amaze me -- There are people who will instantly strike down anything that even begins to analyze "God's Perfect Word."
Yes, there are those that do "instantly" strike thoughts and concepts that go against God's word because they know it already goes against God's word . However, to analyze the word is not improper. We are to study and analyze the word to show ourselves approved, to rightly divide the word (2 Timothy 2:15).
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Originally Posted by godofthunder
"God's Perfect Word." Where on earth did that concept come from? It most certainly does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Has anyone got any idea where that theory (made up doctrine in my opinion) comes from?
IMO, it's not made up or fictitious doctrine at all. The Bible teaches that it is God's truth. So, God's word (bible) is God's truth (John 17:17). If God's character is perfection, ultimate truth, so then is His word.
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Originally Posted by godofthunder
Yes, I accept the contents of the Bible as the writings of prophets and messengers of God. I am confident that they teach good and right things. But ... I don't know, it seems like to some people, the Bible itself is an object of worship and is handed the status of pseudo-deity.
The bible should not be an object of worship. However, that does not mitigate the fact that it is God's word revealed to us. The bible is God's word to instruct us on how to live our life for Him, to learn about God and to gain understanding (2 Timothy 3:16-18;).
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This one does suggest that studying the Scriptures (whether this implies only the Old Testament or not is an open question here) is a good thing and the will of God. Of that I have no doubt.
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14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth.
18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
This entire chapter is one of the most inspirational in in existence. But it simply does not say that "The Bible is God's only true word and is perfect." It would readily imply that the words spoken by Jesus Christ were perfect and we have many of them.
I know that there is the tendency to incorrectly interpret this scripture to mean "I gave you my word and there isn't going to be anymore." If that is the case, then everyone needs to rip all everything but the 4 gospels out of their New Testaments because when Jesus said this, they had not been written yet. For that matter, none of the 4 synoptic gospels had been written yet either. So taking this scripture to mean, "My word is given, there can be no more from this moment forward" effectively loses us the ENTIRE New Testament. So I think we can readily eliminate that interpretation from validity.
That's okay, that chapter doesn't seem to mean anything like that anyways. Just that the words of Christ will guide his followers now that he will not be with them anymore. It does not state nor imply that His word is going to stop at any point.
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16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Here we have Paul giving Timothy a most excellent definition of what scripture is and how useful it is. What we DON'T have is Paul saying that the scriptural record has now been closed -- which would once again be catastrophic since there were quite a few books of the New Testament that hadn't been written yet. It is also very likely that Paul is referring to the Old Testament more than anything else.
There are passages in the Bible that say many things that people misinterpret as meaning, "The Bible is God's only true and perfect word" however even a very basic analysis of each of them, who wrote them, when and how things were worded, leads one to realize that they did not mean anything even remotely similar to "The Bible is God's only true and perfect word."
For one thing, all of them were completely seperate works until sometime after 393A.D. when the New Testament books were canonized, sorted and essentially made into one book. That is roughly 300 years after all of the New Testament had already been written. So for any verse of the New Testament can be used to imply "all scripture has been given in the Bible, there isn't going to be anymore" it would have to make specific reference to the Ecumenical Councils that finalized and combined the New Testament canon. Something about "The books decided upon on that future day are the God's only true word." That or some verse of scripture would need to specifically use the word "Bible." No such verse exists. Biblical canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What seems more likely to me: The theory that the Biblical record was forever closed to any future additions was implied by the simple fact that no more scripture was showing up after about 90 A.D. (give or take a few years.) But I stand by my statement, "The Bible is God's only true word" is not taught by the Bible. It seems to be a tradition mankind invented to explain the fact that no more scripture was being received apparently. I do think it is highly disrespectful and even sinful to misuse the Scriptures in order to somehow prove that this tradition was somehow instituted by God UNLESS the Bible really and truly is saying that.
So what I'm really wondering: Where did the that tradition come from? Who came up with it?
Last edited by godofthunder; 01-29-2008 at 03:10 PM..
It's entirely possible that the Pentateuch could have been both written by Moses and recompiled during the Babylonian captivity. I think Moses had plenty of time for writing--he obviously wasn't reading a whole lot of maps as they wandered in the desert.
And do you think if it was recompiled during the Babylonian captivity there were chances that edits, based on updated beliefs and contemporary biases, could have also been made?
That would apply to all gospels too as far as authorship is concerned.
At best we can believe or assume.
John 17:17 Word
G3056 λόγος logos log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Easily done and please don't take this the wrong way. I wholeheartedly believe that the the Bible contains the words of Christ and are the best means to come to know and understand God in existence currently. I appreciate your zeal for the matter.
The reason that the above is not 100% right:
A.) The word Bible never appears in the Bible. Any reference to the correctness or authenticity of the Word of God cannot be adequately demonstrated to be referencing The Bible specifically, but are general references validating the word of God wherever it should appear.
B.) Furthermore, the books of the New Testament were not canonized and compiled until sometime after 393A.D. (which is when the Church came to a final decision which books were authentic and which were not.) It is stretching the words of the Lord and the Apostles to imply that they were reference a compilation of books that was still far in the future when pronouncing the authenticity and goodness of the world of God.
C.) Some Christian religions say the Apocrypha should be in. Other say it should be out.
D.) There is quite a long list of books referenced within the Bible that are not in it currently. If God can provide an authentic copy of the Book of Nathan, for example, I have no problem accepting it as God's Word.
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Besides, what else would Moses be doing in his down time all those years in the wilderness?
