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To add additional confusion to the matter, Jesus does say "Before Abraham, I AM" and the "I AM" used it the Greek for "I am Jehovah".
Some would say this locks the Trinitarian doctrine in place. I tend to disagree since it is not 100% clear what he is saying there -- in the English version anyways.
It still seems possible to have Jesus = Jehovah without meaning that he is also God the Father, and therefore the Father of Himself?
Three terms are used to refer to deity in the Old Testament. Jehovah (YHWH), Adoni (which I appear to be misspelling) and Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of Eloah.
El or Eloah denotes Father God or highest God. Now much twisting and turning and over-philosophizing of things is done to try to force this term and it's usage to conform to the Trinitarianist dogma.
I think I might suggest another theory. Why not give up on fighting against the meaning and implications of the word and just accept it as it is. Elohim would roughly mean "Father God of Gods" or "Highest God of Gods". It also can be rendered, "The Gods" which would seem very perplexing to a Trinitarianist.
At no point does Jesus refer to the Father as Jehovah, but one of the gospels recounts Christ saying "Eli, Eli ... " where he is personally addressing God while on the cross. This seems to be a greek version of Elohim.
So what if:
God the Father = Elohim
Jesus Christ = Jehovah
This would work certainly, and it would at least make some sense out of references to Christ being the creator of all things and also being God. What of the Holy Spirit though? Any of the prior statments may work. Possibly he is the will of the Father, or the power of the Father to act. Perhaps he is simply one and the same. Or perhaps he is a third being altogether, who enacts God's will. Either version would tend to work.
Truthfully, the varying meanings of Elohim may be something of a Pandora's Box, but since it is a part of the scriptures, then correctly understanding it is essential if we are to correctly understand God.
To add additional confusion to the matter, Jesus does say "Before Abraham, I AM" and the "I AM" used it the Greek for "I am Jehovah".
Some would say this locks the Trinitarian doctrine in place. I tend to disagree since it is not 100% clear what he is saying there -- in the English version anyways.
It still seems possible to have Jesus = Jehovah without meaning that he is also God the Father, and therefore the Father of Himself?
Three terms are used to refer to deity in the Old Testament. Jehovah (YHWH), Adoni (which I appear to be misspelling) and Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of Eloah.
El or Eloah denotes Father God or highest God. Now much twisting and turning and over-philosophizing of things is done to try to force this term and it's usage to conform to the Trinitarianist dogma.
I think I might suggest another theory. Why not give up on fighting against the meaning and implications of the word and just accept it as it is. Elohim would roughly mean "Father God of Gods" or "Highest God of Gods". It also can be rendered, "The Gods" which would seem very perplexing to a Trinitarianist.
At no point does Jesus refer to the Father as Jehovah, but one of the gospels recounts Christ saying "Eli, Eli ... " where he is personally addressing God while on the cross. This seems to be a greek version of Elohim.
So what if:
God the Father = Elohim
Jesus Christ = Jehovah
This would work certainly, and it would at least make some sense out of references to Christ being the creator of all things and also being God. What of the Holy Spirit though? Any of the prior statments may work. Possibly he is the will of the Father, or the power of the Father to act. Perhaps he is simply one and the same. Or perhaps he is a third being altogether, who enacts God's will. Either version would tend to work.
Truthfully, the varying meanings of Elohim may be something of a Pandora's Box, but since it is a part of the scriptures, then correctly understanding it is essential if we are to correctly understand God.
This is essentially why I just say have faith. Makes things much easier... Call you simple if you wish, but I like things that way. Once I get something in my mind, whether be who I love or what I believe in - The only thing that can pluck that thing from my mind is God himself.
This is essentially why I just say have faith. Makes things much easier... Call you simple if you wish, but I like things that way. Once I get something in my mind, whether be who I love or what I believe in - The only thing that can pluck that thing from my mind is God himself.
Well, that can be admirable under the right circumstances and detrimental under the wrong circumstances. A worshipper of heathen gods can take exactly the same stance and things will probably not come out too well for them. Why? Because what they placed their unfailing faith in was a made-up myth fabricated by mankind.
I think the same can be said of the Trinitarian Doctrine. In my opinion, you have to sort out whether this is a man-made myth or a true description of God. The difference here is, in my opinion, God is not going to damn you to eternity in hell for getting it wrong.
Well, that can be admirable under the right circumstances and detrimental under the wrong circumstances. A worshipper of heathen gods can take exactly the same stance and things will probably not come out too well for them. Why? Because what they placed their unfailing faith in was a made-up myth fabricated by mankind.
I think the same can be said of the Trinitarian Doctrine. In my opinion, you have to sort out whether this is a man-made myth or a true description of God. The difference here is, in my opinion, God is not going to damn you to eternity in hell for getting it wrong.
True. The Word does say that one needs to have the "faith of a child" though, to enter the Kingdom. Perhaps child like faith is synonomous with one having a sincere desire/love for Truth in God's eyes. Most children are always asking questions, as well as have very much dependance and trusting in those that they Love. Although over-simplification can indeed be a bad thing, I think it's important not to complicate things too much either.
True. The Word does say that one needs to have the "faith of a child" though, to enter the Kingdom. Perhaps child like faith is synonomous with one having a sincere desire/love for Truth in God's eyes. Most children are always asking questions, as well as have very much dependance and trusting in those that they Love. Although over-simplification can indeed be a bad thing, I think it's important not to complicate things too much either.
You start out with a child like faith but I don`t think you should remain that way. As God opens our eyes to more of his truth,I think he puts within us a desire to know him in a much closer and deeper way. Take this board for example,it`s easy to see who really studies and longs to have a deeper revelation of God. God has opened their eyes to certain things and put the desire in their heart to search and dig deeper into the ways of God. Others seem content to not really study on their own and just believe what was instilled in them at an earlier age and believe what`s taught in their church. Even when certain things are brought to light they just ignore it and quote the standard church line. They seem to just want to follow the masses. But we know what the Lord said about broad is the way etc. I think it`s ironic that most people who quote that verse don`t even recognize it could be them that Jesus is talking about. When he said MANY will say to him in that day..Lord Lord and he will say depart from me..who is the Many he is talking about? Who professes the Lord..it is the church. It is the church and he said MANY not FEW. Many will say to me in that day..not a few will say to me in that day. That verse should be a stern wake up call to MANY who call Jesus Lord and are part of the church system.
It is not the muslims or the buddhist or other religions Jesus is talking about when he says many will come to me in that day saying didn`t we cast out demons and prophesy etc. It is MANY people who actually think they are doing his will. So who is it that we could say falls into that category? Who is it that calls on the name of the Lord...The Church. Some people believe he isn`t talking about the church. But read that verse again. These are people that think they know Jesus. It`s christians. Oh how I wish people would just humble themselves and open their minds. Take a step back and think if you are truly searching for the truth of God or just towing the company line.
Last edited by spm62; 01-31-2008 at 03:09 PM..
Reason: addtion
You start out with a child like faith but I don`t think you should remain that way. As God opens our eyes to more of his truth,I think he puts within us a desire to know him in a much closer and deeper way. Take this board for example,it`s easy to see who really studies and longs to have a deeper revelation of God. God has opened their eyes to certain things and put the desire in their heart to search and dig deeper into the ways of God. Others seem content to not really study on their own and just believe what was instilled in them at an earlier age and believe what`s taught in their church. Even when certain things are brought to light they just ignore it and quote the standard church line. They seem to just want to follow the masses. But we know what the Lord said about broad is the way etc. I think it`s ironic that most people who quote that verse don`t even recognize it could be them that Jesus is talking about. When he said MANY will say to him in that day..Lord Lord and he will say depart from me..who is the Many he is talking about? Who professes the Lord..it is the church. It is the church and he said MANY not FEW. Many will say to me in that day..not a few will say to me in that day. That verse should be a stern wake up call to MANY who call Jesus Lord and are part of the church system.
It is not the muslims or the buddhist or other religions Jesus is talking about when he says many will come to me in that day saying didn`t we cast out demons and prophesy etc. It is MANY people who actually think they are doing his will. So who is it that we could say falls into that category? Who is it that calls on the name of the Lord...The Church. Some people believe he isn`t talking about the church. But read that verse again. These are people that think they know Jesus. It`s christians. Oh how I wish people would just humble themselves and open their minds. Take a step back and think if you are truly searching for the truth of God or just towing the company line.
Well, I don't think we want to generalize all people in the church. People are different. And remember, the church itself doesn't just represent those who are part of the standard church system, it includes all of us. No one deserves to go to Heaven, even those who think they have a "close" relationship with God. Job is a perfect example of how we shouldn't get too much into ourselves, and understand that we aren't completely indispensable before God Almighty. All have fallen short of God's glory. To be honest, it's an act of grace right now that God doesn't just destroy us all. He could very well do that. In fact, when Jesus was riding the colt into Jerusalem - when the Pharisee's got angry with him for his disciples praising him riding the colt he stated something along the lines of "I tell you the truth - if they don't praise me - the stones will"
So I think we all in essence shows that we are all truly under a period of grace right now. If we see problems in the Church structure, we need to try to go in and fix them rather than complain.(I'm guilty of doing a lot of this myself) We also need to pray that God gives us an undivided heart, much like David did - so we will be considered pure in his eyes. Many of us have much knowledge and understanding, but still lack purity in heart and character and a clear conscience which are essential in having if we want to be considered sons and daughters of God.
Last edited by simpleton; 02-01-2008 at 07:19 AM..
Well, I don't think we want to generalize all people in the church. People are different. And remember, the church itself doesn't just represent those who are part of the standard church system, it includes all of us. No one deserves to go to Heaven, even those who think they have a "close" relationship with God. Job is a perfect example of how we shouldn't get too much into ourselves, and understand that we aren't completely indispensable before God Almighty. All have fallen short of God's glory. To be honest, it's an act of grace right now that God doesn't just destroy us all. He could very well do that. In fact, when Jesus was riding the colt into Jerusalem - when the Pharisee's got angry with him for his disciples praising him riding the colt he stated something along the lines of "I tell you the truth - if I they don't praise me - the stones will"
So I think we all in essence shows that we are all truly under a period of grace right now. If we see problems in the Church structure, we need to try to go in and fix them rather than complain.(I'm guilty of doing a lot of this myself) We also need to pray that God gives us an undivided heart, much like David did - so we will be considered pure in his eyes. Many of us have much knowledge and understanding, but still lack purity in heart and character and a clear conscience which are essential in having if we want to be considered sons and daughters of God.
Those who have the Son have the Father and those who do not have the Son do not have the Father. Knowing the one true God and his Son; That is eternal life, yet it is not about eternal life, it is about knowing (if you believe) your real dad and how great and awesome he is. To commune with him, wooohoo. This message is not for those who don't believe, but for those who do. You know Jesus did not come down here to steal the place of the Father, nor is he the Father; The only way Jesus is divine, if you'd call him that, is because the Father has given this to him. He was a spirit in flesh, just as we are. The devil will do anything to take glory away from the true Father and the true Son, just as he is now doing in the world. There are many mysteries to Jesus and all truth resides in him- All knowledge and wisdom is in the Son! For he is the only way to the Father! Glory be to the Father for creating the Son; But we know he is not the Father nor could he ever be the Father. No one can be God almighty. Can God be tempted by evil? Surely not. Has anyone ever seen God? Surely not, only the Son! The Father is greater than the Son. You know all these verses and many more. May this be more confirmation on what God the Father has revealed to you. Those who are in the flock, you hear his voice but those who are outside of it cannot, nor will they be able to unless the Father has revealed it to them- Just as Peter recieved the revelation on who Jesus was, the Father was the one who enabled him. For you who are brothers and sisters and are apart of the flock with our great brother and Lord. First John speaks greatly on the trinity- Let that be even more confirmation for you. Remember, be wary of the one who sneaks around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour; even coming as an angel of light. TEST EVERY spirit by the spirit as John said. ANYONE who denies the Son of God, the Messiah is the anti-christ. Test EVERY spirit by the spirit and do not be decieved. Anyone who denies Jesus as the Son of God (that is saying he is God, saying he is Michael the Archangel, apart of the trinity, Godhead, whatever) is not your brother or sister, they are NOT apart of your family. Nevertheless, may you be encouraged, not be decieved, and lead by our great Father; he who has called you will perfect you in the faith and will NOT loose you. Hold tight to the race and calling you recieved and do not fall astray from the message you heard from the beginning. I thank my Daddy for what I see here on this website, it is a great blessing. Truely there are few, and it is so hard to find them. I see different groups out there, but I know they are of the same flock just different parts of the body. May God unite all his people together.
By the way, forget arguing with anyone about what the Father has revealed to you; If anyone asks, speak on what he has shown you and tell all that God has done for you! Of course be careful not to throw pearls before swine but when it comes to argueing about your faith- do not conform to the ways of this world but seek God earnestly and know you do not have to argue your faith because again, only who the Father has revealed this to will they be able to hear you. Be a light, and others may know your of God! Love, that is the key. Again, I stress do not argue the children of God know his voice! Seek and fellowship [With those who believe] those around you; or if God has called you to be in solitude with him, do that. Grow with him and become spiritually mature, forget the ways of this world and seek out the one who Is.
Also* - I am looking for fellowship of those who know the Lord, or even are wanting to know who he is. Those who believe, those who hear me, those who know. I know my Father is looking for those who are hungry for him and I am! I seek out fellowship, I am living in the Miami Beach area but at the moment am looking to move. I do not know when I will move, but from what has been revealed to me I know I will probably be moving within the next couple of months unless my Father says otherwise. I will be looking for new job opportunities; I really want to be around those who believe. If you can help; please get back to me. My email is [EMAIL="brent_iz_back@hotmail.com"]brent_iz_back@hotmail.com[/EMAIL]. Anything else you would like to talk about let me know! If the Lord is willing I will hear from you soon.
I don't think Jesus literally meant that he was God.
Jesus is as much God as any other person is love when he is in love. I know that Jesus only tried to be loving to others, that Jesus believed that only redemption is the key and not punishment.
God in the OT was more about punishment than about redemption.
In the OT anyone who didn't follow God to the letter would be 'crushed'.
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Call you simple if you wish, but I like things that way. Once I get something in my mind, whether be who I love or what I believe in - The only thing that can pluck that thing from my mind is God himself.
The Son of God
