Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I believe that Jesus is the exact image of God (Colossians 1:15) and all the fulness of God dwelt in Him. I believe that He is God in the relative sense. Jesus also prayed that all of the disciples would be one as He is with the Father (John 17:22) but this does not mean that the disciples are to be God, and Jesus said that the Father was greater than He is. (John 14:28) This was discussed in depth on another thread
and the quote below by another poster presents how I understand it:
" I believe in one God Almighty, the Father. The one Jesus prayed too. The one whose right hand he is now sitting. Christ is worthy of our worship because God the Father gave him all things including his attributes. He gave Jesus the fullness of his Spirit. Essentially making him God, The best analogy I can make,and it might not be a good one is this... There is a father who owns a company..he started it,he built it from scratch and he has a son. His son grows up and the Father gives him the keys to the business. He teaches him about the business. So, the son learns everything from him. His father says son,the business is yours to run. His father essentially makes him part owner but not an equal owner. The Father still has the majority stock or ownership but the son is running the business because the father gave it to him to run. Every employee would call the son boss and be subject to him. They would have to answer to him. He would have the ability to hire and fire people because he was running the business for his father. To the employees and clients of the business, both the son and the father are boss. But the son is the one they would go to if there was a problem. Because you have to go through the chain of command and no one goes to the father but by the son. So one day,after the business is huge and successful and everything is perfect with that business...because the son has got the business running perfectly...the son then and only then hands the business back over to his father. So it ends,exactly the way it started with the Father sitting in control of his business."
I believe that Jesus is the exact image or representation of the Almighty, God the Father. This is why Thomas said, "My Lord, my God!" When we look at Jesus Christ we see the Almighty God because God the Father is in Him. In Jesus Christ the fulness of the Deity dwells. Jesus said whoever had seen Him, had seen the Father. Jesus had every right to say this because He represented the Alpha and the Omega and The Alpha and the Omega gave Him this authority.
"For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak." (John 12:49)
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)
"If God were your Father, you would love Me for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me." (John 8:42)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-26-2008 at 10:17 AM..
I would love to hear how at Jesus' baptism and at the transfiguration on the mount the Father is separate.
Then explain how Jesus sits at the right hand side of Himself.
Then explain for those that believe in the virgin birth how the Holy Spirit does the deed and conceives Jesus.
Do not just defer to trinity (a myth) and Omnipresence.
Explain the difference in Son of man and Son of God.
Explain who the early church baptised in the name of.
Explain then why Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and not to Himself.
BTW regarding angels worshipping Him.
G32 αγγελος aggelos ang'-el-os
From αγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.
Since I believe in the Trinity and I do not believe it is a myth I have to refer to it here.
Since the scriptural record just happens to refer to Jesus as "The Son of God" in many places and "God" in others, I think we can safely say that both are true.
For a more in depth analysis of how that works, I'll have to wait till I get home.
Since I believe in the Trinity and I do not believe it is a myth I have to refer to it here.
Well sadly, belief in the trinity is not a requirement. Try taking on the challenge, yours is a cop-out. Do you know the history of the trinity teaching, how or why it evolved? The NT church did not teach/believe it. The "and these three are one" in 1 John 5:7-8 are altered texts, do not believe me look at BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages., use the NKJV and read the footnotes.
"Believe on me (my teaching) and on Him (the Father) that sent me", seems in a nutshell what Jesus taught.
BTW Jesus and Christ are not the same words neither can they be used interchangeably.
In fact, corporately then individually, we are the Christ. Think about it.
Well sadly, belief in the trinity is not a requirement. Try taking on the challenge, yours is a cop-out. Do you know the history of the trinity teaching, how or why it evolved? The NT church did not teach/believe it. The "and these three are one" in 1 John 5:7-8 are altered texts, do not believe me look at BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages., use the NKJV and read the footnotes.
"Believe on me (my teaching) and on Him (the Father) that sent me", seems in a nutshell what Jesus taught.
BTW Jesus and Christ are not the same words neither can they be used interchangeably.
In fact, corporately then individually, we are the Christ. Think about it.
Blessings
Well I do believe in Trinity, I believe Jesus is God, I believe this what the Bible teaches, you are free to believe as you choose. Mark 1:9-11 when Jesus was baptized shows the Trinity together. The Trinity is a description of the unique relationship of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are MANY verses that I believe prove that Jesus is God and Jesus is Christ and can used interchangeably.
We have seen in scripture that the Father is God that the Son (Jesus is God) and the Holy Spirit is God. But they are all the Same persons not mistaking them for three different Gods but One God, yes this is the doctrine of the trinity, yet I choose not to use the word for the sake of those who do not believe in it because its not found in the bible. Here is my opinion in short i will return with a longer version at a later time, When I prayed to God for understanding this is what I recieved: understand that I am not a bibllical scholar of any sorts nor have I been to any theological studies, so for me God put really simple. We are made in the imagine of God, and if you were to take a person lets just say Billy for all practical purposes. Now Billy is one person there is no other Billy's but the one, but there are three different parts to Billy 1. Body, 2 he has a soul, and 3 he has a spirit. We cannot see Billys soul or spirit but we do feel the effects of them. In the same way God is Body soul and Spirit Am I crazy for this maybe but In my mind this is how I can understand it. Further more when God set Jesus at his right hand this was not a litaral sitting rather stating equality with God to set at one's right hand was to be made equal. Now to come full circle if we look at the first commandment that Jesus spoke of being the greatest we would find that true unity in the body of Christ would be experienced when the three persons in each of us would come to Love God with all our heart=spirit all are soul, and all our mind, Just as Jesus prayed for us to have the same unity that He and the Father have. As expected this will be challenged, ridiculed turned upside down. Please understand this is my simple way of understanding and it is my opinion we are to test every spirit to Gods Word.
Last edited by bwmillard; 01-27-2008 at 01:00 AM..
Reason: icon change
Well I do believe in Trinity, I believe Jesus is God, I believe this what the Bible teaches, you are free to believe as you choose. Mark 1:9-11 when Jesus was baptized shows the Trinity together. The Trinity is a description of the unique relationship of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are MANY verses that I believe prove that Jesus is God and Jesus is Christ and can used interchangeably.
I too respect your beliefs however, not understanding the origins of the trinity doctrine, you are merely left with taughtology.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father aka His nature if you will. His baptism and His transfiguration no way suggest a 3-in-one concept.
Greco/Roman pagan religions all had trinities of sorts. The trinity doctrine was invented to defend the deity of Jesus. Some suggested Jesus did not exist but was only a divine spirit of sorts. The early creeds came in to oppose this POV and over 500 or so years the trinity doctrine was birthed.
Where Jesus makes statements like I and the Father are one, does not infer they were one entity but rather one in Spirit and in agreement. If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father implies not that Jesus was the Father, rather, what I teach and do, is of the Father, I demonstrate the Father to you, you see me, you see Him. One can take that further and say to see how the Father is, look in the mirror. However, churchianity and taughtology has most seeing themselves as worthless, pathetic, little sinners yet ignores the fact we were created in His image.
When you go back to Genesis and read the account of Adam, he was told not to eat of the tree of KoG&E and when he did what did Adam do? He hid himself, took matters into his own hands. God asks him 2 non condemning questions:
Who told you, you were/are naked?
Did you eat of the tree I told you not to?
Of course we see the curses as punishment and we are taught God requires justices and hence needs to punish et al.
In Genesis 4 when God speaks to Cain, He warns him of sin and its desire for him and that he will rule over it. He does not say, doing not well is sin. (
Gen 4:5-7)
But if you already have a mindset of an angry God here, well the rest of the bible will be read that way.
The only difference between the offering of Abel and Cain was, Abel brought first of and Cain brought of. It was not about blood or a lamb symbolic of the Lamb of God. First fruits is the key.
When you can separate Jesus and Christ as being interchangeable, then you can see a whole new picture of who Jesus was and what He taught. Try reading John 7 and John 12. Pay special attention to what the Jews said of the Christ and try reading with an open mind.
Most folk never study the gospels properly and hence much is overlooked. Most churches scratch around in the shadows (OT) and ignore the LIGHT that casts the shadow. They try and merge the God of the NT with the God the Jews thought they knew. Why? It is pretty evident just by the gospels, they had absolutely no clue of who the Father was, how many times did Jesus tell them? To keep folk in bondage to the law, best preach from the OT and sell them myths that keep them from entering into the realm of the FATHER. When folk realise they do not need a teacher or preacher to know the Father, guess who is threatened? The teachers and the preachers.
Jesus threatened the whole way of life of the religious, He upturned their laws and used their laws against them. Today's church differs little. The masses do not know their bible apart from what the preachers say. Just like then, it is the blind leading the blind.
See Father's Love not only requires acceptance but requires that most is not all tradition be dropped. Furthermore, it is a relationship that requires active co-participation.
I will leave you with this.
We do not find salvation, salvation finds us. The asking, knocking and seeking is our part of the deal post enlightenment of salvation wherein the Father reciprocates by answering, opening and revealing.
I see. You're one of those who doesn't recognize Jesus in the Old Testament. His Name is YHWH (Heb-Adonai YHWH), first listed in Gen 2:4. He is called LORD God by the King James translators. He is the God of the Jews, and the ONLY God ever formed, Physically. If you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. Jesus is YHWH, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God Father, the Spirit of Love, of whom no man knew of his name.
Why would you think that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament?
I see. You're one of those who doesn't recognize Jesus in the Old Testament. His Name is YHWH (Heb-Adonai YHWH), first listed in Gen 2:4. He is called LORD God by the King James translators. He is the God of the Jews, and the ONLY God ever formed, Physically. If you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. Jesus is YHWH, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God Father, the Spirit of Love, of whom no man knew of his name.
Why would you think that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament?
God Bless
Did I say that? Usually I say what I mean and leave little open to interpretation. There is only one God the Father and I do not need to use silly names like YHVH or Jehovah to make me sound more credible.
Jesus is the Son of God (pay attention to how I capitalize)
To answer your question, the answer is found in the levitical laws.
I try to be brief but in essence, Moses had the whole stage set for God to speak direct to His people. The folk decided, "You (Moses) speak to us and not God lest we die" They chose Moses as substitute and from thereon, anything Moses said or was inferred that he said opened with "And Jehovah God said to Moses........"(fill in any-man made law here)
I see Jesus as my Brother, the first of many sons/daughters of the Father.
That Jesus is a deity, yes. He was set apart, sanctioned as the Revelator of the Father. The Father honored Him by delegating all to Him. In fact, Adam had this delegation too. He lost it not because of the fall but as a result of eating (dwelling) on the tree of KoG&E, he took things into his own hands.
As for the KJV which is alleged to have 20000+ errors in it, I use the MKJV by choice. I have over 30 English translations I refer to. The key is not reading the black, but reading the white.
IMO the Jews had a perverted POV of who God was/is. Jesus came to set the record straight but most of what we still have today differs little from the Jew's religion in Jesus' day.
Thus the God of the OT is the same as the NT God, just the folk of the OT gave Him bad press. I see Grace throughout the bible. When the Jews stated that genocide was sanctioned/ordained by God, it breaks His law of "Thou shalt not kill"
The Jews screwed up so many times that if it were not for His rescuing a remnant, they would have ceased to exist long ago. In fact, Israel today does not in any way represent Israel of Jesus' time. After 70AD, the playing fields are levelled, neither Jew nor Greek, all equal.
Why look for the truth in the OT when you have the LIGHT in the NT? A shadow of the things to come HAS come and the Shadow Caster, is of much more value than His shadow.
Did I say that? Usually I say what I mean and leave little open to interpretation. There is only one God the Father and I do not need to use silly names like YHVH or Jehovah to make me sound more credible.
Jesus is the Son of God (pay attention to how I capitalize)
To answer your question, the answer is found in the levitical laws.
I try to be brief but in essence, Moses had the whole stage set for God to speak direct to His people. The folk decided, "You (Moses) speak to us and not God lest we die" They chose Moses as substitute and from thereon, anything Moses said or was inferred that he said opened with "And Jehovah God said to Moses........"(fill in any-man made law here)
I see Jesus as my Brother, the first of many sons/daughters of the Father.
Blessings
IOW, you don't know the name of the Father, correct?
And if you do, then tell us whose Son is the Christ? (David's Lord in the OT)
Mathew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
God Bless
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
