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Old 01-26-2008, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,821,991 times
Reputation: 1114

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Hi freedom

Obviously you and I share different perspectives. I can agree sin has a host in us but we were created with that ability and not because we inherit via DNA the original sin of Adam, yet the wages of sin is death not eternal torment and/or punishment.

As for your magic prayer, kinda goes against "If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive" (paraphrased) Furthermore "He who sins does not know the Father" kinda makes you wonder when a preacher of 30+ years is found out of homosexual and in fact pedophile acts so I guess we cannot take that literally eh?

See, the Father I know, does not look upon our sin as taughtology says. He is not a schizophrenic God. In fact when you discover who the Father really is, it is that fact, and not as we are taught (the blood of Jesus that takes away our sin) that strength is found to overcome sin.

Man creates the barrier of sin between us and God and not the other way round, it is our guilt that creates the separation, and it is that self same thing that invents laws keeping us in the flesh wallowing in our sin instead of simply saying sorry and entering into His Love.

If you open your eyes, God gave the 10, then the levites gave another 620, Jesus emphasized 2 (all Love) yet the church still focuses on some of the 630 or makes up their own.

See when you are sin focused, that forces a legal mindset and adherence to laws in the flesh.

Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom thus resurrected as you suggest means that the spirit is also the host, see the error?

Now I by no means condone sin, I say it is no biggie as most make it out to be. Jesus said, "you judge after the flesh, I judge no one" We are supposed to be like Jesus right?

Ironic you can come "just as I am" yet after the fact, the just as I am, needs to conform to ............(enter creed/statement of faith/church law/POV here)

BTW, I am not a person that has any major hang-ups I am trying to justify, in fact, I would say I am less sinful than many yet I am not sinless.

When you read scripture with the bias of law, law is what (all) you will see.

See the Father I know, is far better than my earthly father was and secondly, the Father the church espouses, many earthly fathers are carnally better than that. An earthly father has the ability to love in spite of; yet the heavenly Father cannot?

Seems like unbelievers are better off as once they come to repentance it is tickets for them. The church reduces them to mindless, worthless people that can only see a perverted schizophrenic god that have to work their salvation and the church tries to make them a Mr or Mrs Dooright. We all fall short thus it is by Grace we are saved and nothing else. Yes faith w/o works is dead by the works are what Jesus taught, the simple love things, a cup of water, food for the hungry etc. Not pious oblation that the church teaches. You cannot add to your salvation, what more can you add to unconditional Love?

If you know the Father, that is what you must show them, not their sin.

Blessings
All i can say to that is traditions of the flesh teaching watered down doctrines that do not lead to overcoming one weakness.

Jesus said the things that I do ye shall do and more. Ofcourse that only applies to those that believe in living Christ.


godspeed,

freedom

 
Old 01-27-2008, 01:06 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,078 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
All i can say to that is traditions of the flesh teaching watered down doctrines that do not lead to overcoming one weakness.

Jesus said the things that I do ye shall do and more. Of course that only applies to those that believe in living Christ.


godspeed,

freedom
I do not believe I share a watered down doctrine as you put it, in fact doctrine is what I oppose.

How does doctrine help to overcome? If you condemn a homosexual or anyone for that matter, based upon a legal perspective, what is offered and received is judgement and no advice how to overcome.

In my first post I suggested unconditional love for the brother and refused to judge. The subsequent posts only offered judgement and the law and the typical homo bashing texts like Romans 1. How does that help the poster?

When AIDS came on the scene is was called the gay cancer, then heterosexuals got it too thus it became judgement from God on the fornicators. Then babies got it via blood transfusions and by transfer from the mother and then it was abandoned as a judgement.

Everyone espouses condemnation until it happens to one of their own. The church teaches morals it cannot practice or keep. If your child gets pregnant or AIDS, it is likely you will find little solace in the church and likely you will get stuff like "they had it coming to them" You will then question as to why, where did I go wrong et al. Yup, many out of wedlock pregnancies amongst Christians and no one will ever tell the child of such a conception they were a mistake. Many oppose distribution of condoms as it is seen as encouraging while most folk if they are honest, did it before they got married.

Many come to the Lord after marriage and then it is OK to condemn others as they now conform to said laws of the church and/or bible.

Sadly, sex is one of the most misunderstood and taught facts of life in the church. I do not condone premarital sex but I am also a realist that there is only so much I can do with my children. How young did the folk get married in biblical times? Nowadays, career, studies and our modern lifestyles create morals that biologically are difficult to resist. There may be a few folk that got married as virgins but most my age I speak to were not, I am talking of Christians.

Then folk marry early to fulfil their lusts legally or w/o condemnation and 5-10 years down the line, divorce. So setting a standard legally, does not work.

I do not have a recipe for success but I believe honesty with children and openness to discuss with them urges and the biological functions of the body helps, my wife dealt with my daughter and I dealt with my son. Even so, there is no guarantee. They both know we love them unconditionally and from that perspective, I am sure we shall not be surprised. Should they choose to experiment, I know that they will take precautions.

See that is being a realist and not living on the river denial in Egypt.

At the end of the day, the salvation of my children is between them and God, I do not pressure them. When they ask, I answer. As I love them unconditionally, so too do they know God loves them even better than I do.

Blessings
 
Old 01-27-2008, 01:55 AM
 
14,727 posts, read 33,244,118 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Everyone espouses condemnation until it happens to one of their own. The church teaches morals it cannot practice or keep. If your child gets pregnant or AIDS, it is likely you will find little solace in the church and likely you will get stuff like "they had it coming to them" You will then question as to why, where did I go wrong et al. Yup, many out of wedlock pregnancies amongst Christians and no one will ever tell the child of such a conception they were a mistake. Many oppose distribution of condoms as it is seen as encouraging while most folk if they are honest, did it before they got married.

Many come to the Lord after marriage and then it is OK to condemn others as they now conform to said laws of the church and/or bible.

Sadly, sex is one of the most misunderstood and taught facts of life in the church. I do not condone premarital sex but I am also a realist that there is only so much I can do with my children. How young did the folk get married in biblical times? Nowadays, career, studies and our modern lifestyles create morals that biologically are difficult to resist. There may be a few folk that got married as virgins but most my age I speak to were not, I am talking of Christians.

Then folk marry early to fulfil their lusts legally or w/o condemnation and 5-10 years down the line, divorce. So setting a standard legally, does not work.
A very practical merging of acting and thinking like a Christian in today's context... without any of the less-than-practical ivory-tower rhetoric found in other more rigid posts. Thanks for putting a practical spin on this.
 
Old 01-27-2008, 02:16 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,078 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
A very practical merging of acting and thinking like a Christian in today's context... without any of the less-than-practical ivory-tower rhetoric found in other more rigid posts. Thanks for putting a practical spin on this.
Thank you for those kind words.

But one must remember too, many if not all married Christian couples practice contraception of some sort. I forgot to mention this.

People talk the talk but cannot walk the talk. If God desired women to be eternally pregnant, then we would not have discovered the whys of conception and by that contraception.

Blessings
 
Old 01-27-2008, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,821,991 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
I do not believe I share a watered down doctrine as you put it, in fact doctrine is what I oppose.
Yet you do have a doctrine, it is in your post.

Quote:
How does doctrine help to overcome? If you condemn a homosexual or anyone for that matter, based upon a legal perspective, what is offered and received is judgement and no advice how to overcome.
It shows basic standards of righteousness. Matthew 5,6,7 is filled with how to overcome, and how to be Christlike.

Quote:
In my first post I suggested unconditional love for the brother and refused to judge. The subsequent posts only offered judgement and the law and the typical homo bashing texts like Romans 1. How does that help the poster?
If you believe God loves us unconditionally, and also can not approve of sin, then we can reason that both are possible. What you term bashing, is to me instruction.
Quote:
When AIDS came on the scene is was called the gay cancer, then heterosexuals got it too thus it became judgement from God on the fornicators. Then babies got it via blood transfusions and by transfer from the mother and then it was abandoned as a judgement.
No it wasn't, the babies are innocent, sin always injures innocent people.
Poor example imo...

Quote:
Everyone espouses condemnation until it happens to one of their own. The church teaches morals it cannot practice or keep. If your child gets pregnant or AIDS, it is likely you will find little solace in the church and likely you will get stuff like "they had it coming to them" You will then question as to why, where did I go wrong et al. Yup, many out of wedlock pregnancies amongst Christians and no one will ever tell the child of such a conception they were a mistake. Many oppose distribution of condoms as it is seen as encouraging while most folk if they are honest, did it before they got married.
Hypocrisy does not excuse truth.

Quote:
Many come to the Lord after marriage and then it is OK to condemn others as they now conform to said laws of the church and/or bible.
Saying something that one has learned or experienced is not condemnation in and of itself, condemnation must also have self-righteous intents.

Quote:
Sadly, sex is one of the most misunderstood and taught facts of life in the church. I do not condone premarital sex but I am also a realist that there is only so much I can do with my children. How young did the folk get married in biblical times? Nowadays, career, studies and our modern lifestyles create morals that biologically are difficult to resist. There may be a few folk that got married as virgins but most my age I speak to were not, I am talking of Christians.

Then folk marry early to fulfil their lusts legally or w/o condemnation and 5-10 years down the line, divorce. So setting a standard legally, does not work.

I do not have a recipe for success but I believe honesty with children and openness to discuss with them urges and the biological functions of the body helps, my wife dealt with my daughter and I dealt with my son. Even so, there is no guarantee. They both know we love them unconditionally and from that perspective, I am sure we shall not be surprised. Should they choose to experiment, I know that they will take precautions.
Doesn't really have anything to do with Homo-sex.

Quote:
See that is being a realist and not living on the river denial in Egypt.
And once all of us are realists, then there will be no more knowledge of instruction, thats the watered down part..."We're all sinners, so everybody just keep sinning, then Jesus will hide all your sins. "
Total garbage... and the reason Christ will say, be gone from me, ye that worketh iniquity...Positive peer pressure has kept people looking towards the straight and narrow for thousands of years, now its seen as condemnation, and the one pointing out sin, is judged, and condemned. Nice turn of events. Welcome to the end.
Quote:
At the end of the day, the salvation of my children is between them and God, I do not pressure them. When they ask, I answer. As I love them unconditionally, so too do they know God loves them even better than I do.
Auto pilot works only for a little while, then they crash...

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-27-2008, 12:13 PM
 
14,727 posts, read 33,244,118 times
Reputation: 8949
I doubt anybody here is without sin. If you've coveted an inheritance in advance, that could be construed as a sin. If you've written an overly harsh note criticizing a co-worker or subordinate, that could be construed as a sin. There are many other benign thoughts and actions that border on sinfulness. The bottom line is: It is virtually impossible for 99.9 % of the population not to sin at least once a week or once a month. Thus, we are all sinners...right down to the bone. Also, remember among the most famous of Jesus's sayings: "He is who without sin can cast the first stone." It sounds like some people are most preoccupied with which on "the list" of sins needs to stop to procure their salvation but that other sins can continue. The issue is that people have certain personalities, patterns and addictions and the sins will come along those lines...probably throughout their lives. Ease up.
 
Old 01-27-2008, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,962 posts, read 5,183,270 times
Reputation: 951
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
I doubt anybody here is without sin. If you've coveted an inheritance in advance, that could be construed as a sin. If you've written an overly harsh note criticizing a co-worker or subordinate, that could be construed as a sin. There are many other benign thoughts and actions that border on sinfulness. The bottom line is: It is virtually impossible for 99.9 % of the population not to sin at least once a week or once a month. Thus, we are all sinners...right down to the bone. Also, remember among the most famous of Jesus's sayings: "He is who without sin can cast the first stone." It sounds like some people are most preoccupied with which on "the list" of sins needs to stop to procure their salvation but that other sins can continue. The issue is that people have certain personalities, patterns and addictions and the sins will come along those lines...probably throughout their lives. Ease up.
I have no problem with what your saying here, but I think the issue for many is can one PRACTICE homosexuality and profess at the same time that they are a Christian? Can you put water in a gas tank and say the car will run? Can you pour water over a fire and say it keeps burning? For me no.
 
Old 01-27-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,821,991 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
I doubt anybody here is without sin. If you've coveted an inheritance in advance, that could be construed as a sin. If you've written an overly harsh note criticizing a co-worker or subordinate, that could be construed as a sin. There are many other benign thoughts and actions that border on sinfulness. The bottom line is: It is virtually impossible for 99.9 % of the population not to sin at least once a week or once a month. Thus, we are all sinners...right down to the bone. Also, remember among the most famous of Jesus's sayings: "He is who without sin can cast the first stone." It sounds like some people are most preoccupied with which on "the list" of sins needs to stop to procure their salvation but that other sins can continue. The issue is that people have certain personalities, patterns and addictions and the sins will come along those lines...probably throughout their lives. Ease up.
Its obvious we all have and have sinned, the point is do we just accept and teach that we are slaves to it, and that the light of Christ has no ability to lead us into all truth.
The thread topic singled it out. The question mark on the Sin part of the question was what caused answers from those that had an opinion.
If we justify sin for sin, and give up, then why are we here?

To say a magic prayer, desire mediocrity, give up on righteousness, godliness, and becoming one with Christ?

The sacred ground of accepting certain sins is not the best course to take. It is a watered down message that the generations have continued to build on and embrace.

Repentance is an acknowlegement of error, a right about face from sin to holiness. If we can't speak of holiness, and right thinking. Then we have lost our way, and all is in vain.

Being judged and condemned for knowing the difference between good and evil is about the stupidest thing we can do to ourselves.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-27-2008, 01:52 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,078 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
I do not believe I share a watered down doctrine as you put it, in fact doctrine is what I oppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Yet you do have a doctrine, it is in your post.
If i do have one then I would like to think it is what Jesus taught.
Quote:
How does doctrine help to overcome? If you condemn a homosexual or anyone for that matter, based upon a legal perspective, what is offered and received is judgement and no advice how to overcome.
Quote:
It shows basic standards of righteousness. Matthew 5,6,7 is filled with how to overcome, and how to be Christlike.
Well I looked at the scrips, for brevity the NKJV headings

The Beatitudes
Believers Are Salt and Light
Christ Fulfills the Law
Murder Begins in the Heart
Adultery in the Heart
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
Jesus Forbids Oaths
Go the Second Mile
Love Your Enemies
Do Good to Please God
The Model Prayer
Fasting to Be Seen Only by God
Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
The Lamp of the Body
You Cannot Serve God and Riches
Do Not Worry
Do Not Judge
The Narrow Way
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
I Never Knew You
Build on the Rock

I fail to see here what you infer in all 3 chapters, in red may be appropriate if context is considered, Do not Judge seems to stand out.

Quote:
In my first post I suggested unconditional love for the brother and refused to judge. The subsequent posts only offered judgement and the law and the typical homo bashing texts like Romans 1. How does that help the poster?
Quote:
If you believe God loves us unconditionally, and also can not approve of sin, then we can reason that both are possible. What you term bashing, is to me instruction.
I do believe God Loves Unconditionally and is through that Love we share that the foundation for overcoming sin lies in. Instruction is OK if it is not biased. The church is biased towards homosexuals

Quote:
When AIDS came on the scene is was called the gay cancer, then heterosexuals got it too thus it became judgement from God on the fornicators. Then babies got it via blood transfusions and by transfer from the mother and then it was abandoned as a judgement.
Quote:
No it wasn't, the babies are innocent, sin always injures innocent people.
Poor example imo...
Maybe you were not around then but I clearly remember folk at gay rallies citing Romans 1 when particularly they were rallying for more AIDS research. They backed off when AIDS became universal and heterosexual.


Quote:
Everyone espouses condemnation until it happens to one of their own. The church teaches morals it cannot practice or keep. If your child gets pregnant or AIDS, it is likely you will find little solace in the church and likely you will get stuff like "they had it coming to them" You will then question as to why, where did I go wrong et al. Yup, many out of wedlock pregnancies amongst Christians and no one will ever tell the child of such a conception they were a mistake. Many oppose distribution of condoms as it is seen as encouraging while most folk if they are honest, did it before they got married.
Quote:
Hypocrisy does not excuse truth.
I agree but whose truth?

Quote:
Many come to the Lord after marriage and then it is OK to condemn others as they now conform to said laws of the church and/or bible.
Quote:
Saying something that one has learned or experienced is not condemnation in and of itself, condemnation must also have self-righteous intents.
No condemnation is righteous. Judge not lest ye be judged, it is that simple.

Quote:
Sadly, sex is one of the most misunderstood and taught facts of life in the church. I do not condone premarital sex but I am also a realist that there is only so much I can do with my children. How young did the folk get married in biblical times? Nowadays, career, studies and our modern lifestyles create morals that biologically are difficult to resist. There may be a few folk that got married as virgins but most my age I speak to were not, I am talking of Christians.

Then folk marry early to fulfil their lusts legally or w/o condemnation and 5-10 years down the line, divorce. So setting a standard legally, does not work.

I do not have a recipe for success but I believe honesty with children and openness to discuss with them urges and the biological functions of the body helps, my wife dealt with my daughter and I dealt with my son. Even so, there is no guarantee. They both know we love them unconditionally and from that perspective, I am sure we shall not be surprised. Should they choose to experiment, I know that they will take precautions.
Quote:
Doesn't really have anything to do with Homo-sex.
It does. It is related. I brought it up to show bias exists even with heterosexual relationships. The church is quick to judge what not to do but never seem to bother showing folk how to NOT DO.

Quote:
See that is being a realist and not living on the river denial in Egypt.
Quote:
And once all of us are realists, then there will be no more knowledge of instruction, thats the watered down part..."We're all sinners, so everybody just keep sinning, then Jesus will hide all your sins. "

Total garbage... and the reason Christ will say, be gone from me, ye that worketh iniquity...Positive peer pressure has kept people looking towards the straight and narrow for thousands of years, now its seen as condemnation, and the one pointing out sin, is judged, and condemned. Nice turn of events. Welcome to the end.
Well the depart from me texts if you read w/o a taughtology bias, you will see they were directed at the religious and not sinners. I agree no one is sinless and we should not condone sin. Focusing on the sin theirs or ours demonstrates judgement and not Love. Kinda like you can say:
  1. I hate what you do but I still love you.
  2. I love you in spite of who you are and so does the Father.
Leave the changing to God, none of us can change anyone. Now if that sounds watered down, then maybe you have not quite grasped what loving your enemies is all about.

Quote:
At the end of the day, the salvation of my children is between them and God, I do not pressure them. When they ask, I answer. As I love them unconditionally, so too do they know God loves them even better than I do.
Quote:
Auto pilot works only for a little while, then they crash...
And no one is allowed to crash?

See sin is our tutor. The tree of KoG&E and the ToL coexist in us from birth, depending on which you choose to eat from will yield good or bad fruit. Dwelling on sin is eating of the wrong tree, focus on Love is eating from the ToL, the Christ in you.

Blessing to you too
 
Old 01-27-2008, 02:06 PM
 
Location: minneapolis
19 posts, read 59,649 times
Reputation: 25
the bible was written in aramaic many many many many years ago. a book of stories that have been passed down plenty of times and translated by an unknown number of people. i went to a catholic college and studied old and new testament in college classes. i was an art history major, so i found it very interesting to look at the book from an academic perspective. the stories and passages in the bible are not meant to be as literal as they are often taken today. i respect the fact that you are christain. religion and spirituality are things that everyone experiences and expresses differently.

the most spiritual moment i ever experienced was last year on martin luther king day. i was in a small theatre office in minneapolis that shared space with a mosque. i quietly passed hundreds of shoes lining the hallway. when i got to the office, the other volunteers of the theatre were listening to the radio which was playing the speeches of dr. martin luther king. i could hear prayers coming from the other room. the hair lifted on my neck and arms, and i knew there was something bigger than me in this world. a greater good. that power can be defined in many ways. the god that i know is all loving and has no room for hate. that creator or power certainly would not send your brother to hell. if he can believe that a perfect stranger miles away has faith in him maybe that can be the first step in him finding inner peace. also, it's easy to google the words gay and bible and find passages on both sides of the issue, if you take the passages literally.
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