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I've contributed several times on this thread, buried somewhere in the previous several hundred pages.
There are repentant and forgiven sinners. There are unrepentant and unforgiven sinners. But all are sinners - this is the human condition. A sign saying only sinners are welcome is simply expressing this reality in a humorous way, as church signs often do. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is Christianity 101.
Homosexuality is indeed a religious issue. It is not "natural" to God's creation. This argument is a red herring. As the old saying goes, God created Adam and Eve - not Adam and Steve. He made male and female and blessed the union by which they came together and became one flesh. This too is Christianity 101. Jesus didn't specifically talk about homosexuality because it was so utterly condemned within Judaism that it would have been silly to do so. (In fact, I just finished a book by the leading expert in ancient attitudes toward homosexuality, and he is very clear that it was utterly condemned within Judaism and that the OT and NT passages say precisely what they seem to say. Because he is pro-LGBTQ, he is honest enough to admit that he simply rejects the biblical teachings.)
We are fallen humans living in a fallen creation. To the extent that homosexuality may have a genetic component, this doesn't make it "natural." Any number of quirks, proclivities, tendencies, fetishes and whatnot may have a genetic component, yet some of them are universally condemned and even criminalized. The Christian position is that if homosexuality occurs in humans and nature, it does so because we are fallen humans living in a fallen creation - not because it is "natural."
Homosexuality, I believe, is simply a sin to be dealt with like any other sin - through repentance, prayer, Spirit-empowered self-control, perhaps therapy. I do not tolerate or celebrate homosexuality any more than I tolerate or celebrate adultery, divorce, nymphomania, pornography addiction or any other sin.
Glad to see you correct yourself on just who brought the subject of material gain/loss to the table.
Homosexuals are no different than me or you they are sinners just like we are .
They are welcome at my church as well .
We have a sign posted in fact that " ONLY SINNERS ARE WELCOME ".
Can homosexual sinners at your church speak from the pulpit? Can they teach Sunday School class? If not, then they are a "special" sinner that deserves your anger more than others, right?
Can homosexuals get married in your church like all the other sinners there?
No?
I didn't think so.
Because to you homosexuals ARE a different "class" of sinner.
Oh, my denomination is currently divided big time over homosexuality. But here in the Western Region of the United Methodist Church our bishop is a lesbian who previously was the senior pastor of a 12,000 member UMC church in San Francisco.
So there are some "christians" who treat homosexuals EXACTLY like all other sinners are treated -- without excuse but with grace and the same opportunity to serve God as your "ordinary" sinner.
hate is a powerful thing. It makes people say all sorts of nasty things about Christians.
Would that be like your comparison of homosexuals to bestiality and pedophilia? Oh, that's right!! You are a REAL "christian" so your comparisons aren't nasty!
Homosexuality is indeed a religious issue. It is not "natural" to God's creation. This argument is a red herring. As the old saying goes, God created Adam and Eve - not Adam and Steve. He made male and female and blessed the union by which they came together and became one flesh. This too is Christianity 101. Jesus didn't specifically talk about homosexuality because it was so utterly condemned within Judaism that it would have been silly to do so. (In fact, I just finished a book by the leading expert in ancient attitudes toward homosexuality, and he is very clear that it was utterly condemned within Judaism and that the OT and NT passages say precisely what they seem to say.
I agree with the bolded. If Jesus had started talking about homosexuality, he would have been up on the sticks a lot faster. But that's not what he came to teach. He left us with "Love your neighbor", and 2000 years later, we are still finding out that this was not some simple directive to follow. See this thread.
But I too have made posts long buried in here, and I agree with your assessment as well--it was utterly condemned in Judaism. Our differences lie in your belief that those passages that condemn REALLY came from God and not the men who actually wrote them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball
Because he is pro-LGBTQ, he is honest enough to admit that he simply rejects the biblical teachings.)
<snip>
Got a bit of a giggle over "pro-LGBTQ". Is there really anyone out there promoting LGBTQ? "Be Gay Today!" "Why not be Bi?" "Wanna be Quear? Come on over here!" (Spelling adjusted.)
I think you meant pro-acceptance of LGBTQ.
People already are those things. They can't be made into them.
But yes, the first step is to consider that the biblical teachings came from the men in authority who wrote those things down, believing, of course, that their point of view was the same as God's.
You don't answer a question with a question. Why do fundamentalists discriminate against those not like them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Probably the same reason why you discriminate against those not like you, and you do that a heck of a lot more than any "fundamentalist" here.
I do not discriminate against the person themselves, merely the ideologies that are designed to coercively control others who have a right to be treated as equals without religious domination. In other words, I believe in justice and freedom for all those who are oppressed by a specific religion, government or a single dictator; the tyrants of this world. You are free to believe whatever it is you believe, but you do not have the right to mentally, emotionally or physically abuse that of another. And religious conservatism gives the narcissisticly disordered person a safe place to hide, where their pathological behavior appears to be normal. If you cannot stand-up against extreme fundamentalism, then, perhaps you have issues of a personal nature. But I am sure that you will give yourself a free-pass on guilt since you are righteous and doing everything in the name of your God.
You don't answer a question with a question. Why do fundamentalists discriminate against those not like them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfailing presence
Sinners are like sinners .
What is it you " don't believe " ?
I don't believe much of the nonsense within religious belief-systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball
I've contributed several times on this thread, buried somewhere in the previous several hundred pages.
There are repentant and forgiven sinners. There are unrepentant and unforgiven sinners. But all are sinners - this is the human condition. A sign saying only sinners are welcome is simply expressing this reality in a humorous way, as church signs often do. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is Christianity 101.
Homosexuality is indeed a religious issue. It is not "natural" to God's creation. This argument is a red herring. As the old saying goes, God created Adam and Eve - not Adam and Steve. He made male and female and blessed the union by which they came together and became one flesh. This too is Christianity 101. Jesus didn't specifically talk about homosexuality because it was so utterly condemned within Judaism that it would have been silly to do so. (In fact, I just finished a book by the leading expert in ancient attitudes toward homosexuality, and he is very clear that it was utterly condemned within Judaism and that the OT and NT passages say precisely what they seem to say. Because he is pro-LGBTQ, he is honest enough to admit that he simply rejects the biblical teachings.)
We are fallen humans living in a fallen creation. To the extent that homosexuality may have a genetic component, this doesn't make it "natural." Any number of quirks, proclivities, tendencies, fetishes and whatnot may have a genetic component, yet some of them are universally condemned and even criminalized. The Christian position is that if homosexuality occurs in humans and nature, it does so because we are fallen humans living in a fallen creation - not because it is "natural."
Homosexuality, I believe, is simply a sin to be dealt with like any other sin - through repentance, prayer, Spirit-empowered self-control, perhaps therapy. I do not tolerate or celebrate homosexuality any more than I tolerate or celebrate adultery, divorce, nymphomania, pornography addiction or any other sin.
How much tolerance do you give yourself, as compared to others?
I agree with the bolded. If Jesus had started talking about homosexuality, he would have been up on the sticks a lot faster. But that's not what he came to teach. He left us with "Love your neighbor", and 2000 years later, we are still finding out that this was not some simple directive to follow. See this thread.
But I too have made posts long buried in here, and I agree with your assessment as well--it was utterly condemned in Judaism. Our differences lie in your belief that those passages that condemn REALLY came from God and not the men who actually wrote them.
Got a bit of a giggle over "pro-LGBTQ". Is there really anyone out there promoting LGBTQ? "Be Gay Today!" "Why not be Bi?" "Wanna be Quear? Come on over here!" (Spelling adjusted.)
I think you meant pro-acceptance of LGBTQ.
People already are those things. They can't be made into them.
But yes, the first step is to consider that the biblical teachings came from the men in authority who wrote those things down, believing, of course, that their point of view was the same as God's.
I've contributed several times on this thread, buried somewhere in the previous several hundred pages.
There are repentant and forgiven sinners. There are unrepentant and unforgiven sinners. But all are sinners - this is the human condition. A sign saying only sinners are welcome is simply expressing this reality in a humorous way, as church signs often do. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is Christianity 101.
Homosexuality is indeed a religious issue. It is not "natural" to God's creation. This argument is a red herring. As the old saying goes, God created Adam and Eve - not Adam and Steve. He made male and female and blessed the union by which they came together and became one flesh. This too is Christianity 101. Jesus didn't specifically talk about homosexuality because it was so utterly condemned within Judaism that it would have been silly to do so. (In fact, I just finished a book by the leading expert in ancient attitudes toward homosexuality, and he is very clear that it was utterly condemned within Judaism and that the OT and NT passages say precisely what they seem to say. Because he is pro-LGBTQ, he is honest enough to admit that he simply rejects the biblical teachings.)
We are fallen humans living in a fallen creation. To the extent that homosexuality may have a genetic component, this doesn't make it "natural." Any number of quirks, proclivities, tendencies, fetishes and whatnot may have a genetic component, yet some of them are universally condemned and even criminalized. The Christian position is that if homosexuality occurs in humans and nature, it does so because we are fallen humans living in a fallen creation - not because it is "natural."
Homosexuality, I believe, is simply a sin to be dealt with like any other sin - through repentance, prayer, Spirit-empowered self-control, perhaps therapy. I do not tolerate or celebrate homosexuality any more than I tolerate or celebrate adultery, divorce, nymphomania, pornography addiction or any other sin.
Jesus especially mentioned eunuchs. Not all of his creation falls into the normal Adam and Eve packages. He recognized the human condition and the result of the fall. The "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" argument might hold water if the fall had never happened. But it has, and for whatever reason, humankind is not necessarily what was intended in the beginning.
I purposely haven't gotten into the argument of the origin of homosexuality in the individual... Genetic/born that way vs. choice. I think it is a much more complex issue that is clear cut in some cases and gray in others. Kinsey who studied human sexuality far more than any of us gave a scale in the gray area of human's penchant for bisexuality so I'm not going to wade into that stream except to say I don't see it all one or the other.
I mention that because I see Jesus having far more empathy for the condition of man than most of those that follow him. He chose to clothe himself in flesh and in this act of God becoming fully man, he was aware of what his creation dealt with. Scripture says he was tempted in every way that we are. For the first time God understand what it was like to be his own creation. To say that the omnipotent God didn't know something might sound like heresy, but think on that. And while tempted and not sinning, he then became sin. He did experience sin and it's effect. He knows what we all are dealing with.
This mentioning of eunuchs is debated, but at the very least we can see that Jesus understood and felt the need to speak on behalf of those that don't fall neatly into the male/female normalcy.
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