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...for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
these people are not going to change.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
I hope that someday the fundamentalist will actually get a clue, and begin to walk upright.
This is not talking about homosexuals or lesbians, but in your mind that is all you envision.
Romans 1:22-25 states, professing to be wise, they (idol worshipers) were made fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles. Wherefore also God did give them (idol worshipers) up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonor their (idol worshipers) bodies among themselves; who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honor and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages.
these people are the epitome of what Paul writes about in Romans 1:
"for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things . . .
Glad you brought up the above passage of scripture, urbanlemur. It's one that is most favored by the 'anti-gay brigade' and one that they have no clue as to its meaning. The passage is speaking of those who once knew God but had now given Him up for the worship of pagan idols, images made in the likeness of mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles. Paul refers to these people as 'they', 'them' or 'their' so all we know of those to whom he refers is that 'they' no longer worship the Creator but rather man-made images as found in pagan temples. SO, we know that pagan worship practices are being spoken of here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
. . .therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Paul is still in 'idol worship' mode here where he's condemning those who once worshiped and served the one true God. They are now (gasp) worshiping and serving images of God's creations, i.e. mortal men, animals, birds and reptiles in pagan temples. They are serving and worshiping 'the creature' rather than the Creator who they once worshiped and served. Are you with me so far?
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
. . .for this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
We need to understand here that Paul was NOT writing his letters to we of today in the year 2018 but to a specific early Christian Church, the recipients of whom would have understood what Paul is writing about. Paul is reiterating what they already know ...that some former 'God worshipers' have abandoned God in favor of idol worship. The recipient/s of Paul's letters would have also known that idol worship may well involve the use of temple prostitutes. I would suggest that you Google 'temple prostitutes' for an understanding of their role in pagan temples. Then you will appreciate what it is that Paul is referring to here. As I've stated many times previously, whether temple prostitutes were homosexual or heterosexual is IRRELEVANT. Their sexual persuasion had NOTHING to do with the role of either the temple prostitute or their 'client'. These were sexual rituals performed to the idols in return for (so they believed) supernatural favors. The above portion of the Romans 1 passage is speaking of temple prostitution and NOT 'homosexuality'. It would appear that women were also participating in sexual practices affiliated with pagan idolatry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
. . .and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
The above is merely Paul continuing his tirade about the 'they' he referred to initially. Perhaps he gets off-track and begins to rant about others to whom he has a bee in his bonnet ...who knows? HOWEVER, the main gist of that passage of scripture IS NOT pertaining to either homosexuality or heterosexuality but to idol worship and affiliated temple prostitution rituals as performed to the idols. For those who continue to use that text as a condemnation of homosexuality are doing so solely to promote hatred. Ignorance is no excuse. They can deny this until the cows come home but it will not change what IT IS!
Glad you brought up the above passage of scripture, urbanlemur. It's one that is most favored by the 'anti-gay brigade' and one that they have no clue as to its meaning. The passage is speaking of those who once knew God but had now given Him up for the worship of pagan idols, images made in the likeness of mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles. Paul refers to these people as 'they', 'them' or 'their' so all we know of those to whom he refers is that 'they' no longer worship the Creator but rather man-made images as found in pagan temples. SO, we know that pagan worship practices are being spoken of here.
Paul is still in 'idol worship' mode here where he's condemning those who once worshiped and served the one true God. They are now (gasp) worshiping and serving images of God's creations, i.e. mortal men, animals, birds and reptiles in pagan temples. They are serving and worshiping 'the creature' rather than the Creator who they once worshiped and served. Are you with me so far?
We need to understand here that Paul was NOT writing his letters to we of today in the year 2018 but to a specific early Christian Church, the recipients of whom would have understood what Paul is writing about. Paul is reiterating what they already know ...that some former 'God worshipers' have abandoned God in favor of idol worship. The recipient/s of Paul's letters would have also known that idol worship may well involve the use of temple prostitutes. I would suggest that you Google 'temple prostitutes' for an understanding of their role in pagan temples. Then you will appreciate what it is that Paul is referring to here. As I've stated many times previously, whether temple prostitutes were homosexual or heterosexual is IRRELEVANT. Their sexual persuasion had NOTHING to do with the role of either the temple prostitute or their 'client'. These were sexual rituals performed to the idols in return for (so they believed) supernatural favors. The above portion of the Romans 1 passage is speaking of temple prostitution and NOT 'homosexuality'. It would appear that women were also participating in sexual practices affiliated with pagan idolatry.
The above is merely Paul continuing his tirade about the 'they' he referred to initially. Perhaps he gets off-track and begins to rant about others to whom he has a bee in his bonnet ...who knows? HOWEVER, the main gist of that passage of scripture IS NOT pertaining to either homosexuality or heterosexuality but to idol worship and affiliated temple prostitution rituals as performed to the idols. For those who continue to use that text as a condemnation of homosexuality are doing so solely to promote hatred. Ignorance is no excuse. They can deny this until the cows come home but it will not change what IT IS!
I was going to take it one piece at a time, but you covered it much better and in a shorter time frame.
I was going to take it one piece at a time, but you covered it much better and in a shorter time frame.
Sorry Jerwade ...it seems we posted just several minutes apart from one another. However, great minds clearly think alike . . .
While here though ...I'm wondering if Jeff, BaptistFundie or anyone else would care to refute the 'idolatry and temple prostitution' theme of Romans 1 and would rather present their own particular interpretation of that passage ...?
Until you can make a post that is not a direct personal assault against me, I have nothing more to say to you. I've had my fill of your judgmental lies and mockery.
But you absolutely mocked gays for having gay pride parades. That is an attempt to make yourself better than them.
God has given me the mission to help you see the sinner you really are, and the person behind the mask (whom we really know, don't we? )
Since your fundamentalist buddies like HWC2040 KNOW what God has planned, so can we liberals KNOW your heart, mostly by what comes out of your posts in mocking those whom you think you are better than.
P.S. You avoided like the plague the counter-argument I offered to your statement that Jesus said He didn't come to change the Law. I'm not on here to change you either---just see that you are convicted of your sin of pride.
these people are the epitome of what Paul writes about in Romans 1:
"for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
for this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
these people are not going to change.
Actually YOU are the epitome of what Paul wrote about in Romans one. YOU!!!!
Paul spends the first part of Romans praising the faithfulness of Christians there. He tells them they are good guys and gals and that the gospel is known throughout the world because of them.
Now look what Chapter two starts off with:
Quote:
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Romans 2:1
Paul tells the faithful Christians in Rome they are guilty of the same things "others" are guilty of. Except its worse because of their judgmental hypocrisy.
That's what you and jeffbase are, judgmental hypocrites. And you will be judged by God in the exact same manner as you judge others for their sins.
nothing to tell. David and Jonathan were close like brothers and the Song is a love sonnet. any dirty connotations are in ones own mind
That's not what a lot of Jewish scholars think about David and Jonathan---and there are significant hints in Scripture itself that there is more to that relationship. But to see the hints you must be a student of linguistics---and no fundamentalist has ever deemed to so broaden their mind.
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Conservative commentators reject anything but a platonic interpretation, arguing that the chosen king of Judah could not conceivably have loved Jonathan physically, since homosexuality was already banned by Jewish Law.
This argument doesn’t seem to hold. Various verses in the Book of Kings and elsewhere in the Bible seem to indicate that not only was homosexuality tolerated during the First Temple period — it was typical cultic behavior among the ancient Israelites at the time.
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord cast out before the children of Israel" (1 Kings 14:24), the Bible says of the reign of King Rehoboam, grandson of King David. These “sodomites,” as the King James Bible has it, were male and female sacred prostitutes: men and women who reside in temples and have sex with patrons as a form of deity worship.
We should not be surprised that worship through sacred prostitutes was practiced in ancient Israel some 2700 years ago. It seems to have been ubiquitous in the ancient Near East, among the Canaanite cultures, and in the cultures of Mesopotamia.
Based on what the writings of these neighbors of Israel, we may surmise that the male temple prostitutes of Jerusalem were probably dressed in women’s clothing, and may have been castrated.
Whether sacred prostitutes were plied in the name of Yahweh or his "wife" Asherah, who were widely worshipped together at the time, is not known.
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