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Okay. Here's a question to perhaps help in that exploration...
Do you have some specific reasons for thinking that hating sin would be more effective at bringing about positive change than would a focus on love and the best interests of everyone who is being negatively impacted by that sin?
That's a good approach and I appreciate it. I think my reasons would be tied to this, but I can only present it as a question (not my intention to avoid answering yours).
What if instead of hating evil or sin, we became neutral to it or only kept love in our hearts at all costs?
Would it affect a person's ability to curb sinning if they had no hate or dislike of sin and sinning?
I wish I could think of how to write these as statements, but sometimes questions bring it out best.
I think you asked a great question - I like the direction.
EDIT: I can set aside the question of divinity to take up the question of usefulness. Is hate or dislike of sin useful in curbing sin?
Last edited by svendrell; 10-07-2015 at 04:46 PM..
Reason: Clarification
That's a good approach and I appreciate it. I think my reasons would be tied to this, but I can only present it as a question (not my intention to avoid answering yours).
What if instead of hating evil or sin, we became neutral to it or only kept love in our hearts at all costs?
Would it affect a person's ability to curb sinning if they had no hate or dislike of sin and sinning?
I wish I could think of how to write these as statements, but sometimes questions bring it out best.
I think you asked a great question - I like the direction.
EDIT: I can set aside the question of divinity to take up the question of usefulness. Is hate or dislike of sin useful in curbing sin?
Sven, in my opinion, one shouldn't divorce the question of whether or not hatred is useful to us from the question of if hate is part of the "divine" nature. Don't you believe that we were created to be in the image of the divine, to be a reflection of the divine? My follow-up post below the one you responded to touches on that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
To connect this to the article, the author says this:
"For righteous anger is not sin if we use it as God intended: as fuel for the engine of moral action."
Do you really think the God who is love needs anything other than love to be fueled into moral action? What purpose would an attribute of hatred serve for such a God? And if it serves no purpose for God, and is not divine, why is it something that we should glorify in ourselves by saying we need it to fuel us into moral action?
Do we sometimes use anger and hate to fuel us into action? Sure. But does that make it the optimal thing to do and therefore something we should cultivate, as the author of the article proclaims? I don't believe so. "Whatever is not of faith, is sin." If one thinks one must resort to something -- hate -- that is the antithesis of God's very nature -- love -- in order to accomplish good, that's not faith, and is, in fact sin. It's missing the mark. Why encourage that? Instead, encourage the ideal of being spurred on to action by the divine nature, which is love, and which means keeping the best interests of everyone involved in mind. No hate necessary.
It brings to mind the MLK quote: "Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Well to stay neutral about sin is exactly what Satan wants us to do. Look the other way, say it's none of our business and let it keep happening.
Remember---"the only way for evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
I wonder why you and DRob assume that loving people would mean doing nothing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Hi janelle,
While Jesus was being crucified, he said "Father forgive them.."
"..they know not what they do".
It does not mean that we should not stop evil acts that are being committed.
It DOES mean that we try to see the human BEHIND the evil act. It can very, very, very difficult to do.
However, if you stop for a moment and think to yourself what has happened to this man in his life, where he even fathomed to do such a thing? It is people like this that need love the most, is it not? It is a LACK of love within a heart that causes people to do such horrible things, not an overabundance of it. Do you see what I mean?
Every human being has a heart.
and you can tell how much they are in NEED by their actions.
It doesn't make their actions any less horrible if you are able to see the HUMAN behind the horrible act.
It doesn't excuse the horrible act.
And it doesn't mean that they should not have to answer to those actions (believe me they WILL.)
Hating this man... what does this accomplish? It makes that horrible act multiply and multiply and multiply.
The horrible act has just turned into much hatred in the world.
To the one who said this forum has reached a new low, would you say that to Jesus when he said "Father forgive them?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
It would not matter to me if she was a relative, or even believed the same things.
And I could never watch two-teenage girls being raped by eleven men, either.
Preventing it, was (would be) an act of love, not one of condemnation.
In other words, laying your life down for the benefit of another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
You are making up something to get upset about. No one here said we should allow others to be harmed if it is in our power to stop it. And you put it in the present tense as if it's happening right in front of us and we're refusing to help.
Do you think someone has to hate the person doing violence, or is the important thing to love the person who is being harmed by intervening and stopping what is being done to her if possible?
Does you hating what was done to this poor woman help her in some way? Obviously not. It appears to have caused you to be hateful towards some of us in this thread to the point that you were willing to try to cast us into the worst possible light. How is that divine?
Sven, in my opinion, one shouldn't divorce the question of whether or not hatred is useful to us from the question of if hate is part of the "divine" nature. Don't you believe that we were created to be in the image of the divine, to be a reflection of the divine? My follow-up post below the one you responded to touches on that:
Do we sometimes use anger and hate to fuel us into action? Sure. But does that make it the optimal thing to do and therefore something we should cultivate, as the author of the article proclaims? I don't believe so. "Whatever is not of faith, is sin." If one thinks one must resort to something -- hate -- that is the antithesis of God's very nature -- love -- in order to accomplish good, that's not faith, and is, in fact sin. It's missing the mark. Why encourage that? Instead, encourage the ideal of being spurred on to action by the divine nature, which is love, and which means keeping the best interests of everyone involved in mind. No hate necessary.
It brings to mind the MLK quote: "Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Well done, Pleroo. You are doing a masterful job of explaining how agape love is more than sufficient motivation for opposing evil. We do not need to hate anyone to oppose them and stop any evil they are committing.
Well done, Pleroo. You are doing a masterful job of explaining how agape love is more than sufficient motivation for opposing evil. We do not need to hate anyone to oppose them and stop any evil they are committing.
Since my name was in the quote, I want to point out that at no time did I mention "hating anyone" - I'm not sure anybody else did either, but I haven't re-read the thread.
Since my name was in the quote, I want to point out that at no time did I mention "hating anyone" - I'm not sure anybody else did either, but I haven't re-read the thread.
Right. I don't think most people intend to hate other people. They think that hating other people's sins is righteous, though, and that brings up something important. Janelle said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144
You got that from the article? I think when a woman is dying and someone is urinating on them and taping it for youtube we should not feel agape love for them. That is what I got.
See? Nothing about hating anyone. However, she did say that one shouldn't have agape love for someone who is doing [something that one finds worthy of hate]. Do you think it is possible to hate someone's sin, and truly have love for that person at the same time? Probably many people think so. I think they are fooling themselves.
Right. I don't think most people intend to hate other people. They think that hating other people's sins is righteous, though, and that brings up something important. Janelle said:
See? Nothing about hating anyone. However, she did say that one shouldn't have agape love for someone who is doing [something that one finds worthy of hate]. Do you think it is possible to hate someone's sin, and truly have love for that person at the same time? Probably many people think so. I think they are fooling themselves.
Amen, Pleroo. But It should not be presumed that we shouldn't FEEL the emotions that prompt us to hate evil when we see it, but we should try to channel them into a deep and profound sorrow and sadness for all involved. I imagine that is what our God experiences with every instance of it. Evil is so human, avoidable, unnecessary and self-defeating, not to mention such a complete waste.
Many believe it is their job to flog others, beating (someone) with a whip or stick to cover their own sins?
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Well done, Pleroo. You are doing a masterful job of explaining how agape love is more than sufficient motivation for opposing evil. We do not need to hate anyone to oppose them and stop any evil they are committing.
