A.D. 67-76 date for Clement's Letter to the Corinthians (tradition, Gospels)
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The early date (before the Jewish war) seems to rest on one point (all the rest being points that could be argued either way) and that is that he refers to the Jewish temple sacrifices being done at that time. Which could of course still be during the Jewish war (66 -70 AD) but really only a few years later than 60 AD.
I read a discussion about the idea that Temple sacrifices might still be going on after the destruction of the Temple which seems rather unlikely especially as i never heard of anyone recording that this went on. Only that the centre of worship ceased to be Jerusalem and became the synagogues and compilations of the Law. I other words the High Priestship of the temple had ceased and Judaism was becoming Rabbinical.
So all that tends to confirm the early date - but I read one remark that the verbs of the letter referring to the temple rites were not in the present tense. If that is so, then Clement was referring to to the past Temple ritual, not what was going on at that time.
I tried to find an interlinear Letter of Clement to check this but I only got books offered for sale Can anyone confirm whether Clement refers to the Temple ritual as as that time or in the past?
"These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behooves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen."
It would appear that this is a conflict between those who saw Christianity as an extension of Judaism and those who saw it as a completely new paradigm, and Clement came down on the side of Judaism. I have to wonder if the institution of a chief "bishop" over the council of elders is not a product of this perception.
The early date (before the Jewish war) seems to rest on one point (all the rest being points that could be argued either way) and that is that he refers to the Jewish temple sacrifices being done at that time. Which could of course still be during the Jewish war (66 -70 AD) but really only a few years later than 60 AD.
I read a discussion about the idea that Temple sacrifices might still be going on after the destruction of the Temple which seems rather unlikely especially as i never heard of anyone recording that this went on. Only that the centre of worship ceased to be Jerusalem and became the synagogues and compilations of the Law. I other words the High Priestship of the temple had ceased and Judaism was becoming Rabbinical.
So all that tends to confirm the early date - but I read one remark that the verbs of the letter referring to the temple rites were not in the present tense. If that is so, then Clement was referring to to the past Temple ritual, not what was going on at that time.
I tried to find an interlinear Letter of Clement to check this but I only got books offered for sale Can anyone confirm whether Clement refers to the Temple ritual as as that time or in the past?
Rabbinic Judaism or Rabbinism has been the mainstream form of Judaism since the 6th century, after the codification of the Talmud. Rabbinic Judaism gained predominance within the Jewish diaspora between the 2nd to 6th centuries, with the development of the oral law and the Talmud to control the interpretation of Jewish scripture (specifically the Masoretic Text) and to encourage the practice of Judaism in the absence of Temple sacrifice and other practices no longer possible, while waiting for the Third Temple. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...bbinic_Judaism
Since Peter was supposed to have been martyred in 67 AD, the dates seem a little early. And wasn't Clement supposd to have been the 3rd or 4th pope? Since Linus came before him regardless of the series, it would appear that Clement wasn't the Pope if you dates are correct.
But let's take a look at Chapter 5 of the document you cited:
Chapter 5. No Less Evils Have Arisen from the Same Source in the Most Recent Times. The Martyrdom of Peter and Paul.
But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.
So Clement tells us that Paul was in the east and west and was martyred by the Roman prefects. But Clement says nothing about Peter being in the west or being martyred there.
Why is that?
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 10-24-2015 at 06:33 PM..
Reason: typo
Find it interesting that Clement of Rome quotes from the Gospel of Matthew and Luke , and a few Epistles years before the Gospels were thought to be written ,...... Show that the Holy Spirit and witnesses of Jesus had many Words in the works before 100 AD
Find it interesting that Clement of Rome quotes from the Gospel of Matthew and Luke , and a few Epistles years before the Gospels were thought to be written ,...... Show that the Holy Spirit and witnesses of Jesus had many Words in the works before 100 AD
QUESTION:
Where in the writings of Clement do you find quotes from Matthew and Luke?
Where in the writings of Clement do you find quotes from Matthew and Luke?
Yes, I'd like to know that. This Letter is one I'd not considered before and it is the best argument I've seen in a long while for an early (and therefore reliable) tradition of the deaths of Paul and Peter in Rome and of Gospel material. 90 A.D. is early enough! I would have expected a 2nd c date. First we need to know whether the reference to Temple rites is of contemporary Temple rites or referring to the ones of the past and also just what Gospel quotes we have.
It would seem that the letter is addressing the recent deaths of Peter and Paul in Rome,
so it should be dated earlier, into the 70's at the very least, perhaps even in the late 60's.
There would be no other reason to discuss them as if they recently died if the letter was
from the 90s.
Also, the chapters starting at 40 are preoccupied with establishing the continuation of
priestly hierarchy. This fits with recent deaths of Peter and Paul.
The very beginning of the letter's stated reason to to establish contact from Rome to
Corinth immediately after "sudden and successive calamitous events" which can only
refer to 3: Peter, Paul, and the Great Fire of Rome.
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Can anyone confirm whether Clement refers to the Temple ritual as as that time or in the past?
