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Old 11-16-2015, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Central Flrida
205 posts, read 100,560 times
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The Lord’s Prayer: …“forgive us our trespasses”

Is this “Our Father” prayer petition Christ expectation for sin forgiveness?

Why do Catholics “Have to” Confess their sins to a priest? Why not just go “to God directly?”

Another I AM a Catholic Lesson

By Pat Miron

My dear friends in Christ,

We live in confusing and conflicting times. The Brotherhood [and Sisterhood] of Christianity is disjoined and divided. Catholics are commanded to Confess their sins to a Catholic Priest for the forgiveness of their sins; while non-Catholic-Christians seemingly “get a pass” and can ask God directly for the forgiveness of their sins; and even more perplexing is the belief by many believe that once they profess to have “personal relationship with Christ”; their salvation is assured, as in guaranteed. Meaning that future sins are also automatically forgiven, with little or no additional effort required.

God can be defined as “All Good things Perfected.” On that definition, I think all Christianity could agree? If this definition is true, then two other questions seem to be needed: [1] Does God have to be, in an absolute sense “fair” and “just?’ [2] Are “fairness and justice” good things? We all ought to agree that they are indeed “good things”

This then raises another question: Because God is “all good things perfected” and justice and fairness are good things; should lead us to understand that Catholic and Christian beliefs are not only different; but absolutely contradictory. Which raises two more questions. [1] How can this condition exist? [2] Which of the two positions, if either, is provably correct?

Does the fact that the God of the Old Testament; and the God of the New Testament are the same “One True God” mean that the Old Testament and the New Testament must agree in all of their teachings?
The short answer is NO! Why?

Because the Old Testament while contained in the New Testament, which completes, fulfills and even perfects it are Binding under separate Covenants. The New Covenant overrides, but does not make the Older Covenant obsolete.

Before getting into the answers and evidence of these many questions; it seems prudent to share The “Infallible Rule for Right Understanding of God’s WORDS.”

2nd. Timothy 3: 16-17 [16] “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Mt. 4: 4 “But he answered, "It is written, `Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Here then is the one “Infallible Rule for right Understanding of His Bible”

“Never-Ever: Can, May or Does
One Verse, passage or teaching have the
Power or Authority to:
Make void, invalidate, or override another
Verse, passage or teaching.
Were this even the slightest bit in doubt [it’s not]; it would render the Bible as worthless; completely useless in teaching or learning exactly what God would have all of us know. Amen!


God’s essential Goodness is irrevocable. In other words’ God must do; what God must do.
The relationship between God and a “priesthood” dates back nearly 4,000 years to the early relationship between Yahweh and the then called “Abram”:

Genesis 14: 16-20 “Then he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his kinsman Lot with his goods, and the women and the people. After his return from the defeat of Ched-or-lao'mer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). And Mel-chiz'edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, maker of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”

Little more is known about God and his relationship with His Priest until we get to Moses in the Great Exodus.

Exodus 30:30 “And you shall anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests” Which soon led to:

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Lev.16: 8-9, 21 “and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. … And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; …and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness.”

An interesting perspective on what God commanded, and then accepted for sin-forgiveness through HIS Priest is what appears to me as extreme charity. Look again at the above passage that has come to be known commonly as the “Escape Goat.” An annual tradition ensued that seems to be the forefather of “Yom Kippur”; or “the DAY of Atonement” still celebrated by Orthodox Jews even in our times.

The practice had the High Priest; Aaron in the example given, would lay both of his hands over the goat, while begging forgiveness for all of the sins of the Israeli peoples and then set him loose in to the desert [where presumably the sheep would die]. And God accepted in Good-faith this practice; much as he did on the more specific sacrificial offerings God specified and commanded for sin forgiveness.

This kind of Godly charity seems to be the grounding and historical backing for the various sin-forgiveness practices taught, and widely embraced since Luther and Calvin’s entries on the stage of live. While today’s practices differ a bit; and completely omit ANY essential Role for God’s Priest which has metamorphosed into; anyone and everyone being able to just tell God that they are “sorry” for their sins; so just forgive me.

The premise is that God; in this case Jesus Christ has already done all the hard work, all the heave lifting; so all we have to do is [as I understand it], either profess to have a “personal- relationship with Jesus as their Savior; or simply tell God that your sorry for this or that sin. Both of these conditions are wildly accepted, believed and one assumes; practiced.

What is being either missed, overlooked or ignored; are the following biblical-caveats:
[1] With the Birth, Live, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ; the binding Covenants of the Old Testament; while not voided, are nevertheless overridden by Christ New Covenant; placing humanity under the umbrella of God’s Grace, which as an existing condition in man’s relationship with Christ “looses” [Mt. 16:19 ] conditionally, countless Blessings; while at the same time imposing; many commands. Mt. 13: 12-14 “For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive e ‘.”

[2] Rom.6 Verses 14 to 15 “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

[3] At the risk of sounding here like a “broken record-player:” Even God can have only one set of Faith beliefs per defined issue. It is Morally impossible [and therefore beyond God’s ability in Divine Justice] to presume or to assume that God could, would or did [Not; Not & Not] have one standard for His Catholic Church; already in existence for more than 1, 200 years before Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin, innovative and human engineered; and a FAR easier, acceptable to Him, less demanding and more appealing teachings on “infused righteousness.” What dear friend MAY be infused is God’s Grace, and that conditionally. Infused righteousness is a creation of men; designing religious to be taught believes in order that they might more successfully compete with what Christ had actually taught; and ‘Thee Church of Christ” had for eons had understood, accepted, taught and commanded through both the Power of “All of the Key’s to Heaven, and precisely taught by the bible itself.

Mt. 16: 18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on [YOU] this rock I will build my church, [Singular]and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mt. 28: 16-20 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [Pre-Pentecost] And Jesus came and said to THEM, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and [YOU!] make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded YOU; and lo, I am with YOU always, to the close of the age."

Just how the clarity of these passage can be confused and given their own-versions to accommodate their many differing faith-beliefs; hints powerfully of an influence which is anything but Godly. And this statement is, if it is even possible’ more applicable to what is shared here in number four.

[4] Here then is what God precisely; clearly and with no other options articulated are what God’s Divinely inspired WORD Teaches. And to be fair; I will quote John chapter 20 from both a Catholic Bible and the King James Bible:

Isaiah 51:1 "Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, Who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn And to the quarry from which you were dug.”

1 John 4: “Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

KING JAME’S Version: same passages
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.20 And when he had so said , he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:23 Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .”

And folks can read this; hear this and then be persuaded that it DOES NOT mean what it says: Go figure!

Nothing I can say or do dear friends can make this anymore commanding. Any more clear or any-more precise.

Sadly the very Souls of countless innocent, but gullible Christians, very likely are at risk; because they are lulled in compliancy, and satisfied with “my easier way.”

[5] Missed also; overlooked, ignored or forgotten? Is what God’s Word shares on the absolute need for suffering IN; With and FOR Christ, if we are to expect to attain heaven.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9:23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

Much prayerful reflection is warranted, and is needed. If you’re not actively involved in evangelization; God will expect you to being praying much for souls in danger of losing their eternal salvation.

Let US pray therefore in earnest.

God Bless you,
Patrick
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Old 11-16-2015, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,511,978 times
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What is missing in all that hooraw is the simple fact that the citation "authorizing" confession is the admonition to "confess your sins to one another." Please nore that I have never heard of a priest confessing HIS sins to a parishoner. As with so much else, the Catholic Church has turned a simple mutual accountability idea into a means of establishing and perpetuating the authority of a spurious structure.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:49 PM
 
8,538 posts, read 7,694,626 times
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From Matthew 6:10-13 ..Jesus told us to pray to ``Our Father who is in heaven , Hallowed be Your name Your kingdom come , Your will be done , on earth as it is in heaven .....Give us this day our daily bread , And forgive us our debts, as we forgiven our debtors, and do not lead us into temptation , but deliver us from evil , for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory Amen ``......................... See people are called pray to Father God .................sacred , and holy Is His name ....................Lord God is sovereign king and His will be done , as our will can be held by the evil spirits of this world who will hold it against our will................... Give us our daily bread or the spirit of Christ on our lives every day .................forgive our debts as this is the will of God to be in peace loving and no ought against others ..................lead us not into temptation like the forty days Jesus was in wilderness being tempted by the devil , Like who needs that .............. instead deliver us from evil by the authority of Jesus judgment who will cleanse us all ...Glory to God .....
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Central Flrida
205 posts, read 100,560 times
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Quote:
=hljc;41972924]From Matthew 6:10-13 ..Jesus told us to pray to ``Our Father who is in heaven , Hallowed be Your name Your kingdom come , Your will be done , on earth as it is in heaven .....Give us this day our daily bread , And forgive us our debts, as we forgiven our debtors, and do not lead us into temptation , but deliver us from evil , for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory Amen ``......................... See people are called pray to Father God .................sacred , and holy Is His name ....................Lord God is sovereign king and His will be done , as our will can be held by the evil spirits of this world who will hold it against our will................... Give us our daily bread or the spirit of Christ on our lives every day .................forgive our debts as this is the will of God to be in peace loving and no ought against others ..................lead us not into temptation like the forty days Jesus was in wilderness being tempted by the devil , Like who needs that .............. instead deliver us from evil by the authority of Jesus judgment who will cleanse us all ...Glory to God .....
Thank you!

Nicely done but seems to miss the point of MY OPQ

God Bless you,

Patrick
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Old 11-18-2015, 02:02 AM
 
21,888 posts, read 14,634,178 times
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The priest takes the place of the Lord so we are not confessing to a priest but to the Lord and getting forgiveness from Him. Jesus knew we needed other people, after all we are the body of the church and need each other on our way to heaven.

Getting absolution and hearing the words is very comforting. It also makes us accountable to others so if we want a regular spiritual director to hear our confession that is a big help.
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Old 11-18-2015, 02:25 AM
 
Location: UK
689 posts, read 412,232 times
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Of course I do wrong from time to time as we all do, I apologise to those whom I have wronged. Why apologise to a deity who is worse than any human, even the worst of the species?
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:06 AM
 
44,518 posts, read 29,144,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
What is missing in all that hooraw is the simple fact that the citation "authorizing" confession is the admonition to "confess your sins to one another." Please nore that I have never heard of a priest confessing HIS sins to a parishoner. As with so much else, the Catholic Church has turned a simple mutual accountability idea into a means of establishing and perpetuating the authority of a spurious structure.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:46 PM
 
4,220 posts, read 2,238,127 times
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The "Our Father" is not really a prayer but part of a prayer. When one does the will of God by acting in truth then the "Our Father" comes into play because those who do so are using God's name and acknowledging it as Holy. They will be given their daily bread of life and forgiven their trespasses for forgiving others their trespasses.

Jesus was simply describing what happens to those who do the will of God.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:59 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,556,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
The priest takes the place of the Lord so we are not confessing to a priest but to the Lord and getting forgiveness from Him. Jesus knew we needed other people, after all we are the body of the church and need each other on our way to heaven.

Getting absolution and hearing the words is very comforting. It also makes us accountable to others so if we want a regular spiritual director to hear our confession that is a big help.
Not only is that concept absent from the Bible, but there is zero evidence of any of the apostles hearing confessions, or making them to a priest "in the place of the Lord". Do you not recognize that the idea of a man "taking the place of the Lord" is rather blasphemous to a non-Catholic?
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Arizona
6,520 posts, read 6,049,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Not only is that concept absent from the Bible, but there is zero evidence of any of the apostles hearing confessions, or making them to a priest "in the place of the Lord". Do you not recognize that the idea of a man "taking the place of the Lord" is rather blasphemous to a non-Catholic?
Do you not recognize that Catholics don't think everything is in the bible? Since that is only a third of it you can't really use the bible in a argument with a Catholic.

You say there is no evidence about the apostles hearing confession. Are you talking no evidence in scripture or no evidence of word of mouth through the ages? Just as everything Jesus did is not recorded everything the apostles did is also not recorded. Many things were passed down verbally and never written until centuries later and the fact that they were not included in the bible doesn't matter to Catholics since again the bible is only one third with tradition and magisterial teaching being the other two thirds.
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