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You do not appear to be learning, instead, you comes across as being stiff-necked.
Exactly. Why would a Christian (or a person of any faith or spiritual path for that matter) not want to learn about the infinite and learn and learn and seek wisdom FOR THE REST OF HIS OR HER LIFE? We can't know all the answers, we can only ask the questions. And sometimes when we think we know an answer, something changes and the answer is different from what we perceived it to be.
I wonder if people who struggle with these concepts are just very literal thinkers. I remember reading something by a psychotherapist who said he had to approach people who think very literally in a different way, and gave as an example people who think the saying, "A leopard can't change its spots" is about leopards.
Why wouldn't he, if there was a purpose to him quoting?
But that verse doesn't make sense. "All Scripture is God-breathed". Exactly what Scripture is Paul talking about there? The Bible wasn't in its present form. Some of it, such as the four books we now call the gospels, wasn't written yet. Does it include what he was writing at that moment or was going to write the next month? Is he talking about Torah and Tanakh? Writings that existed then but are lost to us now?
It's a curious verse that merits discussion as to what the author meant, but it certainly shouldn't be taken to mean that what we've got between the covers of the tome labeled The Bible in 2015 was dictated by God Himself. That's a hell of a leap and just plain weird.
It seems to me that desperately needing to believe that these books were dictated by God is a sign of that one's perception of God is rather limited. My opinon, of course. I think God is more than we can imagine or slap down on paper and say, "Voila! I've figured it all out!" If you think you did, you didn't.
Let's suppose Paul was just talking about the first 5 books of the OT. Jesus quoted other OT books. Philip witnessed by to the Ethiopian using Isaiah. Peter (who walked with Jesus) confirmed Paul's writings as gospel. Then you have the writings of Peter and John, along with James, the brother of Jesus.
No, because you insist on a spurious authority which is nowhere promised within that "authority" and ignore the authority or guide that IS promised, or at least relegate it as subject to your spurious "authority."
So you, like Mystic, believe that ~50% of what Jesus is purported to have said in the gospels, He didn't actually say, because it doesn't sound "loving".
Jimmie, what is the 50% that you think doesn't sound loving? A few examples even.
Hi Jimmie, I'm sorry, I hadn't seen your comment until just now. I think your comment is a valid one, and I appreciate the conversation.
I'll try to explain what I mean and hopefully you'll understand more clearly where I'm coming from, (you still may not agree with me, but at least hopefully you'll get a better picture of what I'm saying.) We're just brothers and sisters here together, afterall seeking after goodness and godliness, I believe.
If you think about the bible, and you feel the LOVE of God within your heart, your being, the essence of what makes you "YOU!": your spirit, you can use that LOVE (from God) to start to rightfully DIVIDE the word of truth. You can discern what is OF God and what is NOT of God. It truly is so simple that a child could understand. Now, as children we see the simplicity in truths, but we do not fully grasp the PROFOUNDNESS of these truths. Because we do not have many life experiences and do not have much of a basis for contrast or comparison.
As we grow older, the irony is that we tend to lose our capacity for seeing the simplicity in truths, and the hardness of life starts to dull our hearts, our hearts start to become hardened. It happens as a means of protection. It is human nature. Self-preservation. But God is doing a work in each of us, jimmie, He starts to chip away at the walls we build around our heart. The HEART is where God reaches us. It is through our HEART. It's a beautiful thing. When we start to truly feel those walls crumbling and we are so vulnerable, is where God can really do his work. When the walls start to come down, we discover our child's heart. That beautiful heart of a child is still within us, and God starts to uncover it, and this time, we have the experiences and contrasts of what LOVE is and what LOVE is NOT. Based on our experiences living in this world of endles contrasts and examples of love and non-love. We are all on different points on our own unique path and this is why these contrasts and examples exist in the first place. If we didn't have them, we would not learn.
Now as our heart becomes exposed, we start to get back to those simple truths that even a child can understand, but now the PROFOUNDNESS of these truths take root in our hearts and starts to grow.
There are so many parables in nature, one book cannot contain it all. There is much, much beauty and truth in the bible. And there are also many examples and contrasts of love versus non-love. That is the thing that confuses a lot of people. They call evil "Good" and good "evil". We are to DISCERN. And God working on our heart is exactly how He enables us to HEAR his voice. His voice IS within the pages of the bible, absolutely. And it is not difficult at ALL to discern His voice. God is love. Love is the most powerful thing there is. If we read 1 corinthians 13, we know with our heart that this is an accurate description of love, because of what God has PUT on our hearts. "Those who know love, know God, for God is love". Now if we were to read that God was unkind, unmerciful, impatient, we KNOW because God is speaking His truth to us, that this is not so. We RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth, WE HEAR his voice. We can distinguish His voice from another's. And We will RIGHTLY be able to say that those "unmerciful acts" attributed to God, were not OF God. Because God IS merciful. God IS long-suffering, patient, kind, etc.
Its basically a perspective shift. Once it happens to you, you are never the same. But it cannot be forced, it cannot be rushed. It just must happen naturally. I have full faith that God is doing a work in every single person. When your heart is ready to be totally vulnerable, and it is not an easy thing, it IS a part of the refining fire we must all go through, then God helps to take down those walls, exposing that beautiful heart of a child that is within us all, and we can start to fully grasp his IMMENSE love for us all, my friend.
Again, I don't expect you to agree with what I'm saying and I can respect it. I know that we are all on our own unique paths. And your path that you are on is a beautiful one. I am sure of it. But I did want to try to put into words what was on my heart.
No, because you insist on a spurious authority which is nowhere promised within that "authority" and ignore the authority or guide that IS promised, or at least relegate it as subject to your spurious "authority."
Authority is given within, as I noted to MQ.
The spirit of God is not going to conflict with the Father. They are one and the same.
It WAS God's way of communicating to us, but He sent us Jesus and instituted a New Covenant. The scriptures fulfilled their purpose. They were our schoolteacher under the Old Covenant. They taught us about Christ and Christ revealed the TRUE NATURE of God and demonstrated unambiguously the Spirit of agape love who IS God. God has "written in our hearts" and sent the Comforter in Christ's name to guide us so we would not need anyone to teach us. The scriptures were fulfilled in Jesus. Now we need to follow what Jesus instructed His disciples to do, Love God and each other every day and repent when we don't, period. If we act in the Spirit of agape love we can NOT sin. The Old Covenant in ink and stone "decayeth and waxeth old" and should have vanished away. But the arrogant and ignorant religious leaders stagnated their understanding of God and Jesus in the ancient ignorance as a sign of faith in God. They learned nothing from Jesus and completely misunderstood His message and sacrifice by interpreting it using the savagery and barbarity of the OT beliefs about God.
Hebrews 8:7-13 King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when ]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
The Spirit gives us understanding. The Spirit does NOT contradict God's written word.
Wrong. With this statement you make the Spirit (who IS God) subject to a book written by men that is NOT God. You eliminate the whole purpose of the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." Why would God bother to write anything in our hearts and send the Comforter to guide us to it if the book is the final authority for everything????? Think, jimmie. Think!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
So you, like Mystic, believe that ~50% of what Jesus is purported to have said in the gospels, He didn't actually say, because it doesn't sound "loving".
NO. The standard is the Spoirit of agape love (who IS God), jimmie, not what we think is loving or not. It is either consistent with the Spoirit of agape love or it is NOT. That is an absolute standard and even a child would know the difference, jimmie. Why don't you???? Your dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men" cloud your mind and corrupt your understanding of God and Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
You do not appear to be learning, instead, you comes across as being stiff-necked.
Agreed. He is stuck in the mire of the "precepts and doctrines of men" that govern the dogma he accepts instead of the Spirit of agape love that should be guiding him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Why? Because I disagree with you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
No, because you insist on a spurious authority which is nowhere promised within that "authority" and ignore the authority or guide that IS promised, or at least relegate it as subject to your spurious "authority."
Well said and he has amply demonstrated his elevation of the words "written in ink" over the guidance of the Comforter and what God has "written in our hearts" in agape love.
Wrong. With this statement you make the Spirit (who IS God) subject to a book written by men that is NOT God. You eliminate the whole purpose of the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." Why would God bother to write anything in our hearts and send the Comforter to guide us to it if the book is the final authority for everything????? Think, jimmie. Think!!
NO. The standard is the Spoirit of agape love (who IS God), jimmie, not what we think is loving or not. It is either consistent with the Spoirit of agape love or it is NOT. That is an absolute standard and even a child would know the difference, jimmie. Why don't you???? Your dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men" cloud your mind and corrupt your understanding of God and Jesus.
Agreed. He is stuck in the mire of the "precepts and doctrines of men" that govern the dogma he accepts instead of the Spirit of agape love that should be guiding him.
Well said and he has amply demonstrated his elevation of the words "written in ink" over the guidance of the Comforter and what God has "written in our hearts" in agape love.
All that to say you reject most scripture (including ~50% of the words of Christ), and I don't. You don't even follow the standard of Christ Himself. You have set your own standard as to what is believable and what isn't. I'll remind you for the umpteenth time that Christ quoted the words "written in ink" many times.
Let's suppose Paul was just talking about the first 5 books of the OT. Jesus quoted other OT books. Philip witnessed by to the Ethiopian using Isaiah. Peter (who walked with Jesus) confirmed Paul's writings as gospel. Then you have the writings of Peter and John, along with James, the brother of Jesus.
That would make sense, yes, if Paul was referring to the Pentateuch/ Torah. The Jewish belief was--and is still, I believe--that God gave those words directly to Moses on Sinai.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at by pointing out what Jesus quoted. He was a Jew speaking to other Jews. He would naturally quote their sacred writings, not Homer, to make his points within the context of Jewish theology.
All of those writers set down things of value, but they were people. They were not God, and they were not perfect.
The writings in the Bible are valuable for learning and discussion but they are not God and they are not perfect. There is danger in taking the work of humans and raising it to the status of divine out of desire for a tangible, physical manifestation of God. That's how you get a golden calf.
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