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If you know any thing about gardening ,may be this might help.
you have a plan to build a garden but you need an area that is fertile ,land growth is sustainable . the weeds that currently occupy the land have been growing an mulching the soil but are not in them selves beneficial to any one but them self, and even toxic . These had practices that God did not want included in the children of Israel, and sparing any of them was a compromise that would lead to their fall.(distraction back to pagan worship)
Every single weed had to be eradicated to ensure the life of the garden.
It is believed that animals had been altered in these practices and for that reason had to be destroyed as well.
Any remnant even silver and gold had to me melted down and remove all evidence of the pagan practices.
God was so serious about it, that one of the israelites,Achan had kept a wedge of silver and hid it in the floor of his tent . this disobedience was revealed , God's intervention was lifted Israel paid a serious price, and the man and his family were stoned to death by every one else , for this disobedience.
There are no secrets from God.
When the Israelites were obedient, God walked among them .
So long as Joshua sought God's instruction they had success , but when they arrogantly struck out on their own, they were a miserable failure. (learning any thing yet ?)
Israel did well, until they stubbornly sought to have a king like every other land. Impatiently they did not like having to wait on God. (learning any thing yet ?)
God will do a lot of supernatural things, because He is not limited to science or man's logic.
I trust God's perspective and intervention in my life , and I am not alone.
Not really. You have boxed yourself into a corner because of your desire to credit the Omni's as qualities God MUST have to qualify to BE God. I do NOT. The Omni's are creations of human vanity and hubris that, along with the absurd 100% inerrant Bible have caused the major corruptions of Christ's Gospel and revelation about God's TRUE NATURE. You retain the ignorant and barbaric beliefs about God derived from the OT. I do NOT. The only motives and qualities of God are those taught and demonstrated by Christ.
Personally I think I've more than proved my point while given myself plenty of theological wiggle room without throwing away so much of the bible that it becomes almost irrelevant...As I said from the beginning, I'm only offering possible scenarios where this theology may have been purposeful and morally sufficient enough for God's standards and most of the ideas I've put forth are quite different of those of the standard forum fundie. I don't expect you to agree and sadly I'm not surprise you've already resorted to calling it all ignorant barbarism in spite of the fact you haven't addressed most of what I have written. It ok though, I've written alot and I've already missed one of my favorite monthly events last night thanks to the distractions of posting here (and Christmas shopping ;p ) so I probably won't post much more on this topic. Agree to disagree?
Not really. You have boxed yourself into a corner because of your desire to credit the Omni's as qualities God MUST have to qualify to BE God. I do NOT. The Omni's are creations of human vanity and hubris that, along with the absurd 100% inerrant Bible have caused the major corruptions of Christ's Gospel and revelation about God's TRUE NATURE. You retain the ignorant and barbaric beliefs about God derived from the OT. I do NOT. The only motives and qualities of God are those taught and demonstrated by Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney
Personally I think I've more than proved my point while given myself plenty of theological wiggle room without throwing away so much of the bible that it becomes almost irrelevant...As I said from the beginning, I'm only offering possible scenarios where this theology may have been purposeful and morally sufficient enough for God's standards and most of the ideas I've put forth are quite different of those of the standard forum fundie. I don't expect you to agree and sadly I'm not surprise you've already resorted to calling it all ignorant barbarism in spite of the fact you haven't addressed most of what I have written. It ok though, I've written alot and I've already missed one of my favorite monthly events last night thanks to the distractions of posting here (and Christmas shopping ;p ) so I probably won't post much more on this topic. Agree to disagree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney
Lets look at the natural facts of creation: God made a world where Wolves naturally tear cute little bunny rabbits to shreds for a meal and we hunt as well...is that unloving? Would God be a vegetarian? What about those all those innocent plants vegetarians are murdering?! Violence in nature is usually much less humane than Torah animal sacrifices (most of which were eaten by the way) happens every day virtually by design (unless you believe there was no death before "the fall" that is). He gave the world enough free will to were people are tortured and killed on a daily basis and he sees and feels all of it. Given these facts about the world and its design, What makes you think for a second that he is not capable of creating a redemption system resulting in him painfully dying on a cross to prove his "no greater love" for us and to show us the ugliness and cost of sin?
I think the bold above may be the sticking point. I have acknowledged your fine apologetics for the barbarity, but I am not questioning whether or not God COULD have set up a system that requires blood sacrifices to appease Him so He could forgive us. I am rejecting the very idea that He would for ANY reason. It makes zero sense. As agape love, He already would not hold anything against us. We are told so in 1 Cor 13 and Jesus said God is not counting our sins against us. Jesus demonstrated not counting our ancestors' brutality and savagery (sins=missing the mark=being wrong) because "they knew not what they did." We can agree to disagree, Jrh. I love your posts and we are not really on separate pages.
I think the bold above may be the sticking point. I have acknowledged your fine apologetics for the barbarity, but I am not questioning whether or not God COULD have set up a system that requires blood sacrifices to appease Him so He could forgive us. I am rejecting the very idea that He would for ANY reason. It makes zero sense. As agape love, He already would not hold anything against us. We are told so in 1 Cor 13 and Jesus said God is not counting our sins against us. Jesus demonstrated not counting our ancestors' brutality and savagery (sins=missing the mark=being wrong) because "they knew not what they did." We can agree to disagree, Jrh. I love your posts and we are not really on separate pages.
Ok then. I glad you like my posts and I don't dislike your Joseph Fletcher on steroids approach by any means. Its just one of those things where there are so many verses in support of something that I feel obligated to try and make sense of it if possible. I suppose readers can decide for themselves whether I've given enough logical and moral reasons for why he might have chosen such a system.
\ What makes you think for a second that he is not capable of creating a redemption system resulting in him painfully dying on a cross to prove his "no greater love" for us and to show us the ugliness and cost of sin?
Just a quick comment... I'd say that most of us are quite aware of the ugliness and cost, and a 2000 year old story of a brutal crucifixion isn't needed to make it any more real. This felt need to hammer people with guilt just in case they don't feel vile or hopeless enough is one of the more harmful aspects of Christianity and has nothing to do with love.
If you know any thing about gardening ,may be this might help.
you have a plan to build a garden but you need an area that is fertile ,land growth is sustainable . the weeds that currently occupy the land have been growing an mulching the soil but are not in them selves beneficial to any one but them self, and even toxic . These had practices that God did not want included in the children of Israel, and sparing any of them was a compromise that would lead to their fall.(distraction back to pagan worship)
Every single weed had to be eradicated to ensure the life of the garden.
It is believed that animals had been altered in these practices and for that reason had to be destroyed as well.
Any remnant even silver and gold had to me melted down and remove all evidence of the pagan practices.
God was so serious about it, that one of the israelites,Achan had kept a wedge of silver and hid it in the floor of his tent . this disobedience was revealed , God's intervention was lifted Israel paid a serious price, and the man and his family were stoned to death by every one else , for this disobedience.
There are no secrets from God.
When the Israelites were obedient, God walked among them .
So long as Joshua sought God's instruction they had success , but when they arrogantly struck out on their own, they were a miserable failure. (learning any thing yet ?)
Israel did well, until they stubbornly sought to have a king like every other land. Impatiently they did not like having to wait on God. (learning any thing yet ?)
God will do a lot of supernatural things, because He is not limited to science or man's logic.
I trust God's perspective and intervention in my life , and I am not alone.
The garden analogy is not a terrible justiifcation but its things like stoning a mans entire family for his failure that really makes people here question how much God was really behind some of these things and I can't say I blame them...its apart of the reason why I often turn to "big picture" arguments like divine middle knowledge combined with UR to show how it might make sense from a divine plan perspective..but given that there are much worse and harder to justify examples all through out the old testament, it hardly seems like enough..even after adding in ideas like "this is what it was like to live under the law and God wanted to show us how much better we have it now." But then again, we live in a very different culture where we don't hold entire families accountable for one persons actions as if we were Klingons.
Just a quick comment... I'd say that most of us are quite aware of the ugliness and cost, and a 2000 year old story of a brutal crucifixion isn't needed to make it any more real. This felt need to hammer people with guilt just in case they don't feel vile or hopeless enough is one of the more harmful aspects of Christianity and has nothing to do with love.
Personally, I think everyone needs a reminder once in a while. Especially for those of us who live in a rich peaceful country, its easy to become complacent about just how chaotic and sinful our world is. If it was apart of Gods plan, I don't think he intended to make people feel vile and hopeless, but to help make them humbleby reminding them that no one is perfect and remind them how much God loves them by what he did for them. Most christians I know don't go around feeling vile and hopeless and the ones who do usually are on some form of medication or at the very least don't dwell enough on how much their heavenly father loves them. If Jesus truly believed what he said when he said the no greater love than to lay ones life down for their friends, it makes sense that he would make it apart of his eternal plan of redemption (or at least reconnection) to show the extent of his love. Perhaps thats his greatest hope for all Christians: to feel and live in humbleness and feel loved in a no greater fashion.
Personally, I think everyone needs a reminder once in a while. Especially for those of us who live in a rich peaceful country, its easy to become complacent about just how chaotic and sinful our world is.
"Once in a while"? That is the foundational message of Christianity.
Quote:
If it was apart of Gods plan, I don't think he intended to make people feel vile and hopeless, but to help make them humbleby reminding them that no one is perfect and remind them how much God loves them by what he did for them. Most christians I know don't go around feeling vile and hopeless and the ones who do usually are on some form of medication or at the very least don't dwell enough on how much their heavenly father loves them. If Jesus truly believed what he said when he said the no greater love than to lay ones life down for their friends, it makes sense that he would make it apart of his eternal plan of redemption (or at least reconnection) to show the extent of his love. Perhaps thats his greatest hope for all Christians: to feel and live in humbleness and feel loved in a no greater fashion.
Is it possible that you don't realize that this sounds like an abusive husband keeping his wife "humble" so that she will appreciate his "love" for her?
Perhaps Christianity doesn't want its members to feel vile and hopeless (although being reminded in every church service that one is a miserable sinner deserving of punishment now and for eternity belies that, don't you think? Like you said, gotta remind people "once in a while" how undeserving they are of anything good so that they will be grateful for whatever crumbs they receive), but it sure does want the "world" to believe it is vile and hopeless so that Christianity can provide the supposed remedy. It's a slick marketing scheme.
To me, the message of the Jesus narrative, whether historically true or not, is very different than the "love Me, you worthless worm, or else" message that the currently prevalent atonement theory presents. It runs along these lines:
"Life can throw crap on you. Heartbreak and loss, physical and emotional pain and wounds, hurdles and insurmountable obstacles, the day to day grind, the disappointments. Sometimes, just surviving takes everything you've got.
Then, as if that's not enough, there's all the ways in which you disappoint yourself. You want to live life fully and joyfully, you want to be courageous and bold, you want to be loving and generous and make a difference in the world around you... Sometimes maybe you are and do. Sometimes you aren't and don't. And when you think about your failures, you can become despondent and hopeless and internalize it and think you are, at your core, a failure, a waste of life. And there are always those people who, from their own place of ignorance, will assure you that is true.
When in that frame of mind, and in the midst of your pain and ignorance and fear, you can't even recognize Love to receive it, you may lash out and try to destroy it. You might even think you succeeded. But Love will always overcome. You can't ever really kill or destroy it. As a matter of fact, it's IN you. Maybe you feel like nothing good could survive in you... almost as if you're a grave. But it is there and it WILL be raised in you. I, LOVE, am always with you and will never forsake you. Turn to me, believe in me, and be saved from your own wrong image of yourself."
Last edited by Pleroo; 12-19-2015 at 07:56 AM..
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Violence in nature is usually much less humane than Torah animal sacrifices (most of which were eaten by the way) happens every day virtually by design (unless you believe there was no death before "the fall" that is). He gave the world enough free will to were people are tortured and killed on a daily basis and he sees and feels all of it. Given these facts about the world and its design, What makes you think for a second that he is not capable of creating a redemption system resulting in him painfully dying on a cross to prove his "no greater love" for us and to show us the ugliness and cost of sin?
