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Well, there you have it. "All you've ever HEARD is the baloney of churchmen".... who I take it would be anybody that you could button hook into the conversation.
You're a victim of bad theology I think. There is no contradiction or logical fallacy on this issue. I could explain it to you... but I think you'd do yourself better to figure it out on your own. It isn't difficult.
I'm only a victim of what the Bible says. You keep saying, "You know what it's all about, Thrill. You're just lying to yourself" or something to that effect, but I have been studying this stuff with an honest heart for the last 5 years since slowing de-converting from Christianity when I started realizing that all the pieces of Christianity were squeezed and hammered into place like a badly-cut jigsaw puzzle.
Formerly I towed the Christian line just like you are doing--goose-walking in lockstep with all the power-hungry, mad Christian churchmen like Matt Slick and Lane Craig. But slowly I began to see that there simply was no concrete evidence for any of this other than what churchmen had been saying for 2000 years.
But we're way off topic, here--partly my fault. I started to say I'm a victim of what the Bible says: Jesus says He came to save lost sinners. But then in the next breath he said that most sinners are not going to be saved; they're going to walk through the wide gate to destruction. Jesus doesn't hint at all why. He just says that's what's going to happen. The part about him coming to save everybody indicates he had the will and the desire to save everybody, but the part about most people going to destruction anyway indicates to me that Jesus wanted to save but was unable to. As Epicurus said "If God is willing but unable then he is impotent, meaning not omnipotent. Otherwise Jesus never would have said "Many go through the gate to destruction even though I have come to save those which were lost".
Please line up these two verses for me and make them fit together.
Explain how Jesus came to save everybody and yet most everybody is going to destruction.
The son of man only fails to save you if you don't follow Him. The son of man saves everyone who chooses to do God's will.
Not everyone who cries to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my heavenly Father.
I didn't come down from heaven to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching namely whether it comes from God or I am speaking on my own.
Anyone who speaks on his own seeks his own glory but whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.
"The Lord is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls upon Him in truth."
The son of man only fails to save you if you don't follow Him. The son of man saves everyone who chooses to do God's will.
Not everyone who cries to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my heavenly Father.
I didn't come down from heaven to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching namely whether it comes from God or I am speaking on my own.
Anyone who speaks on his own seeks his own glory but whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.
"The Lord is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls upon Him in truth."
Again, you're just making excuses for Jesus' and by extension God's dismal failure to save men. You're putting conditions on what it takes to get saved. "Yes, you're saved IF you do this and you do that and you follow this and you don't follow that."
Christians are always fond of saying that salvation is an "unconditional gift" from God. But you're saying there are all sorts of conditions tied to salvation.
Here's someone who vehemently disagrees with your position. He lists SEVEN reasons why God's gift of salvation really IS unconditional:
Proof #1: Man has no natural desire or ability to obey or please God for salvation. Proof #2: God expressly denies man's will or works in obtaining salvation. Proof #3: Faith and works are results of salvation, not conditions or means for it. Proof #4: Jesus Christ saves sinners by Himself without any human cooperation. Proof #5: The gospel and its ordinances were never intended to give eternal life. Proof #6: The Bible gives examples of sinners saved without any conditions. Proof #7: Unconditional salvation is the only doctrine giving God all the glory.
I frankly would go with this position any day of the week, then I could become a Christian again. But Christian fundamentalists have messed with my brain for too many decades so I'm too broken to be "fixed". The only alternative to keeping my sanity is rejecting the entire mess and becoming a deist so I can let God sort it out. I trust His love. I reject all that Biblical guff of his hatred for men.
Please line up these two verses for me and make them fit together.
Explain how Jesus came to save everybody and yet most everybody is going to destruction.
Turning to universalism helped me with the dichotomy you have. The destruction is that of the sin nature. Just because Jesus has made the way to the Father accessible, when He lived his incarnation, doesn't mean that everyone, the first time they come here rolls off the conveyor belt of life 'saved'. Han is right, we were created as spirits before we were incarnated in flesh. I've just started reading The Spirits book by Allan Kardec - it has no contradiction with universalist ideas except that it's fairly obvious that Kardec or the spirits who gave him the spiritism doctrines were not 'saved'. What makes it a valuable read however is that it totally explains some things that your baloney preachers will never discuss. You and I both know that life doesn't work like they say ona Sunday morning for most people, so it is incumbent on us to make a correct model of 'how it is'. The Truth is that Jesus did not fail. The Truth is, most are not saved when they die. There is no contradiction here. As has been pointed out Jesus mission was very specific. In the fullness of time His work of reconciliation applies to everyone.
See God did not make people robots which He could control and program to do this or do that , He made man and gave him authority over the earth which is an impossible task without God help and God gave man free will to accept God in unity and ignore God ......................Also the earth is full of sin which is alien to God , and man can sin , or turn to God in unity with Jesus , and have the sin removed through His spirit ........................So Jesus came to save sinners but if they do not what to be saved then they will remain sinners , and not over come the world which is full of sin ..................................... Look at God Holy Angels , God gives them free will and over one third turned their backs of God and are now lost on the world as fallen angels which hold curses against man which can affect the will of man , where there is No forgiveness of sin for them .......................................Look at the demons who were created to be good helper in the creation for the flesh of man and animals , all had free will , and all rebelled and do evil against the flesh of man animals , and there is no forgiveness of sin for them
Again, you're just making excuses for Jesus' and by extension God's dismal failure to save men. You're putting conditions on what it takes to get saved. "Yes, you're saved IF you do this and you do that and you follow this and you don't follow that."
Christians are always fond of saying that salvation is an "unconditional gift" from God. But you're saying there are all sorts of conditions tied to salvation.
Here's someone who vehemently disagrees with your position. He lists SEVEN reasons why God's gift of salvation really IS unconditional:
Proof #1: Man has no natural desire or ability to obey or please God for salvation. Proof #2: God expressly denies man's will or works in obtaining salvation. Proof #3: Faith and works are results of salvation, not conditions or means for it. Proof #4: Jesus Christ saves sinners by Himself without any human cooperation. Proof #5: The gospel and its ordinances were never intended to give eternal life. Proof #6: The Bible gives examples of sinners saved without any conditions. Proof #7: Unconditional salvation is the only doctrine giving God all the glory.
I frankly would go with this position any day of the week, then I could become a Christian again. But Christian fundamentalists have messed with my brain for too many decades so I'm too broken to be "fixed". The only alternative to keeping my sanity is rejecting the entire mess and becoming a deist so I can let God sort it out. I trust His love. I reject all that Biblical guff of his hatred for men.
God made conditions which are recorded in the scriptures. Jesus reminded us of those conditions but those who claim to follow Jesus set up a different theology apart from that teaching. That is the confusion.
"The Lord guides the humble to justice and He teaches the meek His way."
"My chosen one's shall inherit my holy mountain, my servants shall dwell there."
"The upright shall dwell in the land, the blameless shall remain in it."
"Blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the land."
"All those who do good to the resurrection of life"
"The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father."
"The man who loves me keeps my word and my Father will love him and we will come and dwell within him."
"Blessed is he who hears the word of the Lord and keeps it."
"I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world and they have kept your word."
Salvation is for those people who settle, sure your saved but that is not reward and this Earth is just a proving ground for the sons of God, And the prize that people struggled to obtain is to become a son of God and given your own Earth.
Revelation 2
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
You are given the same promises Jesus was given and you go down to a habitable earth where you rule the entire earth alone.
I'm sorry I have not read any other posts...this is what I saw and it stopped me in my tracks.
Quote:
Wide is the gate and broad the way leading to destruction, and many (most) are those entering through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
(Red is for mods so I changed the color.)
Quote:
Did you catch that? Jesus says he came to save the lost from hell.
But by his own admission most are going to hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reading comp 101...Interpretation, insertion of your own words.
Automatic F in my class.
Sorry, but this happens so much on forums...no where did Jesus say
the word hell.
May I presume what he may have meant by destruction...no...not without saying it
is a possible interpretation...I call stretch.
Do I even believe Jesus came to 'save' us...no...teach...yes....some could call that saving us from the dream, the illusion this place is...pointing to Reality.
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