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Old 02-09-2008, 01:50 AM
 
Location: UK
2,579 posts, read 2,444,947 times
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I suspect the post that started off this discussion was mine and I should say something about it.

I agree completely that we should live our lives according to our beliefs. Every decision we take in life should be guided by God and by Jesus's example.
If we do not agree with other people's point of view we should also say so, at the risk of being "persecuted" or mocked but.....
... we can still do that in the light of God's love. It does not mean that we don't stand fast anymore, it just mean we treat other human beings with respect.

We can also try and see where other people come from and really listen to their point of view, that should not be a threat to our beliefs if they are strong enough. We may even learn something. I for one have learnt a lot here even if I may not agree on some of the things I discovered.

After all the Pharesees thought they had all the truth and did stand firm against Jesus, did they not?
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,593,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Oh, To clarify, It is truth, it doesn't contain all truths. That comes from the Holy Spirit, the one that leads us into All truth.

The letter killeth, the spirit maketh alive. We are not meant to be book bound. Once we learn the message, it is meant to be lived, that is where the real learning and growing begins, because in order to do so, one must be in tune with the voice of the spirit.

Even to the point where we only do what we see the Father do.

godspeed,

freedom
Well said freedom. In fact VERY well said.

I saw it quoted earlier in this thread "When that which is perfect is come" and I am aware that the passage is interpreted by some to mean the bible. I consider this to be an absurd interpretation. "Love (agape) never fails" is the premise.

A book is not and cannot be perfect and certainly cannot be perfect love.
This is a person being described, not a book.

Jesus, nor Paul, nor any other prophesied of a perfect group of 66 books which would guide us into all truth. They spoke of a Spirit which would guide us into all truth. Without the Spirit of the words written, history shows that the 'letter' of the bible can even be used to cause great harm.
I fear the church has largely fallen into bibliolatry, that is: bible worship.

Here's a snippet from this link
Bibliolatry -- Bible Worship

(quote) the inerrancy message is a thinly disguised version of "you may not disagree with me." The issue is power, control, and the right to dictate who may do what and when; to tell other Christians what they may and may not believe. This is so foreign to the message of Christ, that it should shock all true Christians. As the old hymn says, "the Church's one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord." The Bible is our primary source for knowledge about Christ, but it is not our foundation. (end quote)

I hope this doesn't seem off topic - it's really not. The cornerstone of 'tolerance' is not being wishy washy about beliefs, It is acknowledging that we all see in part, and until the kingdom comes in it's fullness we will not "know as we are known"

blessings,
- Byron
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:44 AM
 
224 posts, read 413,804 times
Reputation: 47
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I would say this either you believe these verses or you don't.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

Here we see Paul telling us that certain gifts of the holy spirit will stop. This is a direct quote I did not alter it thats what it says.

Back to the other thought for a min. Are you saying that the Bible contains error? Because if not that is sure how it kinda sounds to me. Because if you dont think the Bible is what it is then how are we to know what to do in order to be saved?
Ho wcan you be sure thats an inspired section or not?
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:55 AM
 
Location: New England
8,155 posts, read 20,931,709 times
Reputation: 3338
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxGreyFalconxx View Post

Here we see Paul telling us that certain gifts of the holy spirit will stop. This is a direct quote I did not alter it thats what it says.
This thread is going off topic fast so just a quick comment.

I've never seen that scripture being about the here and now. Paul is talking about when Christ returns hence he ends your quote with:

"12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

And in verse "10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."

I've heard it said he is talking about the Holy Spirit but I have never met the Holy Spirit "face to face" and ah, He already came at the time of the writing.

Another perspective.
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: New England
8,155 posts, read 20,931,709 times
Reputation: 3338
Quote:
Originally Posted by hutch5 View Post
I suspect the post that started off this discussion was mine and I should say something about it.

I agree completely that we should live our lives according to our beliefs. Every decision we take in life should be guided by God and by Jesus's example.
If we do not agree with other people's point of view we should also say so, at the risk of being "persecuted" or mocked but.....
... we can still do that in the light of God's love. It does not mean that we don't stand fast anymore, it just mean we treat other human beings with respect.

We can also try and see where other people come from and really listen to their point of view, that should not be a threat to our beliefs if they are strong enough. We may even learn something. I for one have learnt a lot here even if I may not agree on some of the things I discovered.

After all the Pharesees thought they had all the truth and did stand firm against Jesus, did they not?
I think you are confusing "civil debate" with allowing people to run you over and take away your "rights" as a Christian.

I think we all agree that civil debate is wanted. The problem is there is no tollerance for those being called "intollerant". (Us)

In the name of "tollerance" our nations heritage and "Christianity" is being wiped away by one activist judges decision and ACLU law suit at a time.

P.S. Jesus LAID INTO the pharisees hardcore. The movie Matthew really puts this into perspective as Jesus was laying into them for about 15 minutes. (If you dont' know the movie, it's the actual book of Matthew made into a movie with only the bible text as script. GREAT movie)
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,298,216 times
Reputation: 1503
I think many people are adverse to being informed of consequences.
I know I am;

Was told if I drive too fast,I'll have an accident. I had one
Was told if I drank too much, I'd get sick. Got sick
Was told if I smoked, I'd get addicted. I did
Was told if I lusted after other women, it would hurt my marriage. It did.
Was told anger and resentment will make me sick. It did

Seems some folks prefer the carrot to the stick
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:31 AM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,434,996 times
Reputation: 18580
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Just a quick thread without a lot of thought or preparation behind it.. (like most of my threads ) but I was wondering what your thoughts were on this subject.



In another post someone mentioned the the need for us Christians to show tolerance and an openness towards others' views. What are some pointers so we can all have good discussions, and how do we reconcile this with trying to "stand fast" in the Lord, not wavering in what we believe to be truth?
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; )
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works
What are your thoughts?
I think that if we keep in mind that each of us are not standing behind a pulpit and preaching to the crowd of like minded believers that we will do just fine..People generally don't come here to hear a sermon or to hear that their religion is not the true one.We have to remember that we are in a public place and our opinions are open for any kind of feedback..We should be well enough established in our faith to let the love and patience of God show through our words..If we are well established in our faith then there is no one here who can make you question it..Tolerance can also be defined as patience..Openess can also mean that your mind hasn't completely shut down to learning
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:37 AM
 
479 posts, read 1,139,413 times
Reputation: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I think that if we keep in mind that each of us are not standing behind a pulpit and preaching to the crowd of like minded believers that we will do just fine..People generally don't come here to hear a sermon or to hear that their religion is not the true one.We have to remember that we are in a public place and our opinions are open for any kind of feedback..We should be well enough established in our faith to let the love and patience of God show through our words..If we are well established in our faith then there is no one here who can make you question it..Tolerance can also be defined as patience..Openess can also mean that your mind hasn't completely shut down to learning
Good points blue.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:51 AM
 
Location: UK
2,579 posts, read 2,444,947 times
Reputation: 1689
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I think that if we keep in mind that each of us are not standing behind a pulpit and preaching to the crowd of like minded believers that we will do just fine..People generally don't come here to hear a sermon or to hear that their religion is not the true one.We have to remember that we are in a public place and our opinions are open for any kind of feedback..We should be well enough established in our faith to let the love and patience of God show through our words..If we are well established in our faith then there is no one here who can make you question it..Tolerance can also be defined as patience..Openess can also mean that your mind hasn't completely shut down to learning
As usual Blue you are so wise. Thank you for your words.
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,593,512 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxGreyFalconxx View Post
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I would say this either you believe these verses or you don't.
Yes, 'certain' original recorded words are surely God Breathed, there is no doubt in my mind. Many of those words transformed my life because of the power of the Holy Spirit contained in them. HOWEVER, the 66 book bible did not exist at the time Paul wrote the above, and the original KJV alone (I believe admittedly) contained over 10,000 errors (I know I'll have to post references to back that up - will find it unless someone beats me to it). My point is that worshiping the bible as the "Word of God" is idolatry and laziness. It's easier to study a book than know a person! The 'Word of God' refers to that which holds the universe together, not a book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxGreyFalconxx View Post

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

Here we see Paul telling us that certain gifts of the holy spirit will stop. This is a direct quote I did not alter it thats what it says.
As I stated I am aware of the teaching that the bible is God's perfect love which causes all knowledge to cease. I think it's clear that it's referring to the full manifestation of the kingdom as I stated in a previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxGreyFalconxx View Post
Back to the other thought for a min. Are you saying that the Bible contains error? Because if not that is sure how it kinda sounds to me. Because if you dont think the Bible is what it is then how are we to know what to do in order to be saved?
Ho wcan you be sure thats an inspired section or not?
I think you are making a great point and I know to question inerrancy is scary for many and viewed as a slippery slope to start down. Believe me, I've been in this mostly full time for the last thirty years - so I know how prevalent and 'sacred' this doctrine of infallibility is. ie: That God would not allow His 'Holy Word' to be corrupted. Well, the bottom line is - He HAS allowed it. Many times. Study the history of the bible and you will find it's true.

Does this hurt my faith? Absolutely not. I think it's by design so that the we have to find Him for real, not in creed and dogma AND to help us avoid the trap of bible worship that many have fallen into.

I will say this boldly. There are people very close to me that adhere to bible inerrancy and they will argue with me day and night about it but they haven't the first clue to what it means to live in the Spirit and manifest God's love and power (of course, I'm not their judge - I'm just talking about lack of observable fruit). I understand that this is just subjective observation, but it tells me that adhering to the bible does not a Christian make. History and day to day life proves that.

blessings,
- Byron
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