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Old 02-10-2008, 01:19 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
I am not sure why this question is directed towards universalists either, Stephen. The belief in the eventual restoration of all does not suggest that individuals continue to live a life of willful sin to abuse the grace of God. What is our response to the sacrifice of Christ? Does it mean that we thumb our noses as Him and do as we please? Christ died for us that we die to sin and live for Him. There is to be a change in our lives. As a Universalist Christian, I believe in the judgments of God and that there are consequences for disobedience. I also believe that all will one day see the error of their ways and be reconciled to the Creator. There will be those who seek to abuse the grace of God. This does not mean that universalism teaches this. God bless.

Hey Shana,

Thanks for the response. I guess my problem with the concept of universalism is that there seems to be no existence of hell/eternal consequences within it's doctrine - or specifically it states that all who deny righteousnous will be brought back and reconciled once again to live in righteousnous with their creator.
Christian Universalism teaches consequences for actions. I do believe that many will experience hell but eternal hell, no. I do not see this presented in the scriptures. I do not believe that people will be reconciled to the Creator without the experience of judgment to convict them of sin. There is a higher purpose in for judgment.

Quote:
Scripture teaches us the opposite of this doctrine, as it teaches the existence of eternal punishment, as well as states that when we deny the Lord(who is righteousnous) - he will deny us.
This is your understanding, Stephen. Many do not agree with you that scripture teaches the opposite of this. Many believe and understand that the punishment is not eternal and has a higher purpose. Yes, Jesus will deny those who deny Him. Eventually all will confess Him.

Quote:
In the doctrine of universalism - it almost seems like the gift of grace takes the form of an anarchic doctrine, or specifically - it allows one to willfully disobey for as long as they want and not have any reverence for their creator - and still be in effect accepting the gift of grace God has given to all mankind.
It may seem like to you, Stephen, but others do not see this. Again there will be indivduals who abuse the grace of God. Individuals do it today even when presented with the teaching of eternal hell, correct? We cannot control how a person responds to the gospel. But God will eventually enlighten them.

Quote:
This is not to say that all who are universalists believe what I've listed above, but it is to say that the above universalist beliefs do indeed contradict what is found in scripture.
Well, again, this is your opinion I believe that eternal hell beliefs do indeed contradict what is found in scripture. God bless, Stephen and thank you for sharing.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-10-2008 at 01:30 PM..
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Old 02-10-2008, 02:03 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
In the doctrine of universalism - it almost seems like the gift of grace takes the form of an anarchic doctrine, or specifically - it allows one to willfully disobey for as long as they want and not have any reverence for their creator - and still be in effect accepting the gift of grace God has given to all mankind.



"Paul spoke to the philosophers at Mars Hill in Acts 17:31 and warns them of a coming judgment. I do believe we would be incomplete in our representation of God if we failed to warn men (including Christians) that there are consequences for sin. Paul's message to these philosophers was that God is strictly commanding all men everywhere to repent. (V. 31) However, there is a big difference between warning men of a coming day when God will judge all men (which He most certainly will), and that the consequence of not accepting Jesus Christ is “eternal” torment in flames of fire."


Exposing the Greatest Lie Ever Told

Quote:
God is the fire. He is the consuming fire..we read that in sacripture. No one says there will not be consequences. But ET believers simply cannot get that out of their head. No matter how many times it is said they still think Ur espouses no consequences for actions. God will not send most of your friends and loved ones that you know in this life,stephen, to some burning trash dump to be burned alive with literal flames and then let you and everyone else forget about them. The God of love that I know will not do that to any human being that he has created
Amen. God bless.


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Old 02-10-2008, 03:17 PM
 
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Looking over a few posts - I guess preaching ET no ET is a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. I think it is a problem though, when one teaches that Hell or some form of punishment doesn't exist at all - which is scripturelly untrue. Still, glad we could discuss this topic civilly as it is definitely a difficult but important topic to discuss amongst believers and I always kind of renig on posting on such topics myself(along with topics revolving around revelations) That being said I think I'll bow out of this one for now.

In Christ,

Stephen
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Old 02-10-2008, 03:57 PM
 
Location: NC
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Thank you for sharing, Stephen, and thank you for the manner in which you post. God bless.
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Old 02-10-2008, 10:16 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleton View Post
To be quite frank - I'm not entirely sure what to deny him in entirety means. Scriptures say that in essence to deny him means to not acknowledge the sacrifice of Christ for the remission of one's sins.
Jesus stated even those that do not believe Him He does not judge.

Quote:
Now as to whether or not an acknowledgement of Christ being my savior by words, works, etc - etc means that to God I have truly acknowledged him and received this remission is beyond me to discern.

My own thought process is that in one having truly accepted the gift of grace/Christ in their lives - it's a combination of all of these things, as well as God being the final decider as to whether or not to extend his grace upon a person.
That is fine with the way you believe, yet many do good works that even Christians do not do, not that works save but they are recognised as just/kind works. Unbelievers have simply not accepted Christ yet and reading many Atheist sites, IMO they have not rejected Christ but the religion behind it.

Quote:
In answer to your omnipresent question, the answer is again - I don't know. I do know all things are possible to God, as this is what scripture tells me. God is omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent - so who's to say what he can/can't do? There's a certain level of understanding that we in our human bodies just won't possess until we are with him for eternity. And even then I'm not entirely sure if everyone in the kingdom will possess all of the same knowledge, as there will be those who are greater - and those who are considered least. Vessels of honour, and vessels of dishonour.
I agree in part. I believe their may be different ranks and purposes but at best it is based on very few scriptures. Who really knows?

Quote:
To be quite frank, it's really better that we are not able to understand all of these things at this juncture within life, as Christ himself said - much of what he has not revealed to us as of yet, would be more than our limited minds could bear.
Understanding comes with Asking, Seeking and Knocking. We need to be patient with the His speed of revelation

Blessings
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:14 PM
 
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Default Abusing God's Grace is Dangerous!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleton View Post
Just thought I'd ask this question as I've been thinking about it a lot myself lately. Why is it that God's grace, his lovingkindness and mercy - is taken as a weakness? I'm finding that myself included, as well as many others within this planet, seem to think that just because God has extended his grace to mankind - that means that we are no longer obligated to carry our crosses and serve the Lord, or obey the commands.

I think that God is a loving God, and truly does want all to be saved - but are we really accepting his gift of salvation, if we continue to live a life full of willful sin?

Interested in knowing your thoughts on this....

In Christ,

Stephen
Stephen,

My Sunday lesson was about this very topic, and I have to admit that I take the stand that once a Christian truly accepts Jesus as his personal savior, NOTHING CAN PLUCK HIM OUT OF Jesus' HANDS. The sad fact is that some people think that because we are saved by GRACE, that gives a person a free pass to continually, and the key word here is HABITUALLY sin because all of his past, present and future sins are forgiven. NOT!!!!! We all need to REPENT from sin when we are aware of it since the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance 2Peter 3:9.
Also, Jesus clearly said that if we LOVE him, we will OBEY his commandments. In 2 Corinthians 13:5, it says that we should examine ourselves at to whether we are in the faith. TEST ourselves. Paul even asks the Corinthians that do they know that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.
With that question in mind, a truly born again christian has to take up his cross daily and MUST be bearing or growing into bearing the fruit's of God's spirit, if God's spirit truely dwells in his heart. The fruits of the Spirit are clearly told to us by Paul: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and SELF-CONTROL. We must maintain self control against any type of sin in order to truly walk right with GOD. This means that a truly born again christian has to make a RADICAL change and take on a new nature. We must use the word of GOD to keep us focused on him, and as humanly possibly, daily remind ourselves that we can't do anything without GOD's help.

The WORD of GOD is a great place to start helping those of us who think that we can continue in sin and not pray to God and immediatly repent. We can't be a christian, and think that we can habitally sin without the Holy Spirit convicting us of our wrongdoings as well as not meditate on God's WORD by daily reading it, reflecting on our day, and asking God to help us continue to walk righteously with HIM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Iowa
55 posts, read 109,368 times
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Just sharing an experience here...

As I was growing up we attended a church with beliefs along the lines of free will and that it is possible to lose ones salvation even after “truly” being saved. I remember a number of times the adults talking about those eternal security people and how they believe they have a license to sin and think they can “do what ever they want”. I stayed in that church until just a few years ago, though in a different church fellowship. The attitude towards eternal security was the same there.

A few years ago I began attending an independent Baptist church. The members there do believe in eternal security. It didn’t take long for me to learn that there is no one there (that I know of) using their security as a license to sin or to abuse God’s grace. Certainly, no one there would teach this.

I had assumed that what I heard in the other denomination about Baptists was true until I got to know them better. It was actually through a friend that I started attending there, otherwise I would not likely have considered it all.

Very recently I changed my mind about the whole doctrine of eternal torment. What that means for me is that I disagree with the mainstream doctrine regarding the nature and duration of the lake of fire. What it does NOT mean to me is that I have license to sin. I continue to serve Him because I love Him.

Ironically, I left the former church because there were a lot of liberal behaviors there that I did not want my children to adopt. The eternal security folks at my current church avoid these things. They do not want to abuse God’s grace and neither do I.

Thanks for the thread and for the good tone.

Kind regards,
bradm
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Just curious, is the attached an accurate article on the development of Universalist doctrine?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Universalists
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:37 PM
 
Location: on a green & blue ball called earth
265 posts, read 614,021 times
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hmmmm, hears what I believe:

The grace of God is a favor we don't deserve. you may ask what favor and I say the favor is to speak to us. although there is nothing we can do to make God speak to us he does so. the grace of God is God starting a conversation with us. God wants to communion with man and so He gives us his Grace which is the same as his word.

now this Grace of God is rich during our times since we are living in a time when God is speaking a great deal. this grace is applied to sinners to convert them and we call it conviction. conviction is God calling them to himself since no one can come to him except that he calls them. so we see here how grace is applied to the lost to call them into communion and now we also find that grace is also continued once a person recieves God. this grace which is the same as God's communion with man comes in many different ways.

these ways would be God's types of language. stay with me here. Grace is God talking to us and how he talks is his language. God's language for a person may be visions, for another dreams, for another revelations, and still for another illuminations. in fact God's grace can come in a varity to an individual if God so choose because God's initiating the conversation and he speaks as he wills to those he is calling that are sinners, and communing with which would be saints.

In this text shows Grace is connected to revelations, also the dispensation we live in where God is speaking.

Eph.3:2-5 / If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

in this verse we see how God calls the sinner:

Eph 2:8 / for by grace are you saved thought faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

remember Grace is God's call/communion towards man.

now I'm gonna answer your question as to why we abuse Grace but I want to be sure you really understand my answer when I give it. now for one other point about grace. because there is no divison in God we know that whatever God sees is what he says, and what he says is what he sees. in fact we find this in the bible where often people would say that they have found grace in another persons eyes, and yet other text where this was said of a person having found grace in God's eyes. the point of this being brought up is because I want to show the relationship between eyes, and speech and how they are gates to communication/communion.

for example: Gen 50:4 / and when the days of his morning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, if now I have found grace {communion} in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying......

now to be sure I didn't loose you, don't confuse the grace of God with prayer. prayer is US petitioning, asking, and supplicating with God. it's when we approuch God with a request and so we are communing with God. Grace is God speaking to us and he does this of course in the spirit with his language of illumination, revelation, word of knowledge and so on.

in this verse we see here how God can flood his communication on another as to make his instructions or himself clearly known. as the grace of God flows upon a person they KNOW what they did not know before ABOUT GOD and the things concerning Him, themselves and his body/church.

see here how this is so:
Zechariah 12:10 / and I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and ......

when they LOOK this means they will see and see as have revelation of who the LORD is. this happened because God pour out his WORD/WORDS.

ok, now for why do we abuse the words/instructions/guidance/communion/language of God? I'll say that again: why do we abuse the visions, dreams, words of knowledge, FLOW of God?

because we don't REALLY believe we need the grace of God to live just like the following verse says:

Matt.4:4 / but he answered and said it is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {proceeding word is a pouring out of words}

also:
Luke 4:4 / and Jesus answered him, saying it is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

we actually are saved by the Grace of God and we need it to remain alive in him. because the death of the spiritual man is not so easily seen as with the body we can just carry on like nothing is happening. men don't fall dead these day as they did in the old testiment when grace {warnings, rebukes, ect...} was not the dispensation, therefore we move on abusing God's call and communion. it's no different than me telling my child not to cross the street and she does it anyway. to disreguard my words is dangerous and disrespectful so what does that make it when we do God this way. he's talking to us and we labor harder to ignore convitions of doing wrong even after we were warn not to do wrong.

when people often say, God's grace is sufficiant for me I wonder do they know that what they are saying really is that if nothing else in this world goes right for me AS LONG AS GOD IS STILL SPEAKING TO ME it's all that I need. his grace really is sufficiant for us all. we can get through anything as long as God is calling the shots AND WE OBEY.

tee-hee-hee

I close with this verse:
Heb 4:16 / let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in a time of need.

I'll say that again:
let us therefore come bodly unto the throne of manifestations that we may obtain mercy, and find inspiration to help in a time of need.

once more:
let us therefore come bodly unto the throne of instructions that we may obtain mercy,and find instructions to help in a time of need.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:16 PM
 
Location: NC
14,702 posts, read 17,032,530 times
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Quote:
Just curious, is the attached an accurate article on the development of Universalist doctrine?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Universalists
Hi Oakback, it looks like it gives a description of the development in the US as a denomination or group. Here is a link which traces it since the early days of the church and another article describing beliefs of most Christian Universalists. . Hope it helps. God bless.

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years


http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/unbelif.html
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