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ARAMAIC the language of Jesus
Phl 2:5 Reason this within you which Jesus Christ also reasoned
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
KJV
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
NIV
Phl 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
I always thought the NIV got it right, pointing out that even though Jesus is God, He let go of the rights and privileges of that status in order to suffer and die as a man. I guess to some it may look as though the NIV is trying to deny the divinity of Jesus in that passage?
- byron
Pseudopigrapha.....................wow nice $25 word there. Had to look that one up.
Not every day you come across an absolutely huge word that refers to something so incredibly simple.
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Could you please list verses that you feel conflict with each other. Please note I only want Scriptures none of those $25 word books.
Because I hold that they are not inspired writings.
I don't like picking the Bible appart. There's plenty of Atheists and non-Christians out there that are far more willing and able to do so than I am.
But fine, I'm game. Do you want to me point out a contradiction that is inside the Bible (different passages covering the same event but having completely contradictory events and facts) or an apparent transcription error? Or would you like both?
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And that flows into this....I will be very clear here.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Lets break this down.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
If you believe this then Scripture cannot contain error. Why? Because I think we can all agree God cannot lie and be God.
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
Self explanatory.
or instruction in righteousness
If the Scriptures are flawed this verse cannot be true. And if they are flawed we are back to God and lies.
hat the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Now I have already shown you the definitions of the words perfect and thoroughly. So if these verses are flawed then our good works would also be flawed.
Okay, let ME be very clear. I mostly agree with the general premise of what you are saying. The principals are sound. God is perfect, so when he inspires mankind, that inspiration will be exactly right for that time and that place and that person. The inspired words from God are very useful to us, even if they are from thousands of years ago.
But this verse never says "The Scriptures are perfect." The words "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished" are not being used to describe the Scriptures. They are being used to describe "the man of God". I don't think anyone here is going to disagree -- "the man of God" is the Christian seeking to become more Christlike. And what is Paul telling Timothy? That the scriptures are highly valuable leading a Christian believer to godliness, perfection, and good works.
Not only does this passage of scripture not say that "the Scriptures are perfect." It never uses the word "Bible." So the premise that this verse is inferring that the Bible is perfect is unsustainable -- unless you draw a bunch of conclusions and infer a number of "implied" meanings (which you have done most certainly done.)
One of the most important flaws to the conclusions you are drawing here: Most of the New Testament hadn't been written yet. The earliest writings of the Apostles were the epistles of Paul. Quite a few years later, Matthew, John Mark, and Luke wrote the first three Gospels. All of the other epistles came next. Then last of all, the writings of John, with the Gospel of John being written last. That's a whole lot of missing "Scriptures". It is more reasonable to conclude that Paul's instruction to Timothy in this passage pointing toward the Old Testament scriptures. After all, a recognition of the canon of the Old Testament was already in place at that point in time. So if even if you can stretch that passage as far as you just did, you've only effectively proven that Paul taught that the Old Testament was perfect.
I can invent a completely heretical doctrine on the spot by adding in "obvious logical conclusions" into the following passages:
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Matthew 5:48
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John 17:11
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21-23
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
So since I already know that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one and the same being, then I can easily determine from these verses that the end result and goal of every Christian is to merge with God and become a part of him. To become one with God, therefore to become part of God. Thus, we are trying to become God.
Now to clarify, I absolutely do not believe in the conclusion that I just drew! I'm using it as an example of how easy it is to make the wrong conclusions on the basis of the Biblical text. So when you begin to draw conclusions and read things into the text that are not there, you're in danger of inventing doctrine that God never intended.
In my studies of Christian denominations, I've come to find that there are two extremely prevalent doctrines that have appeared, both of which have virtually no foundation nor credibility:
1.) The Deification of Mary. From the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the mother of Christ -- That she was perfect and that she stands very near to God and Christ in her infinite power and goodness. Mary has been transformed into a God -- though Catholicism stops short of calling her that, but she is the object of praise, adoration, devotion, forgiveness and worship.
2.) The Bible is God's only true perfect word. It is complete, whole and perfect. It contains everything that God has ever revealed to mankind and it contains every word of God ever given to mankind. Doubting anything in the Bible is heresy. Adding anything to the Bible or taking anything away from it is heresy. The Bible is likewise turned into a lesser deity, becoming an object of devotion, worship, forgiveness in some cases and adoration. The Bible is touted as being virtually Omniscient.
Both of these doctrines are, in my opinion, invented doctrines of mankind.
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So let me be very clear.
There is no other book needed to know Gods mind as much as humanly possible as the Holy Bible. The Scriptures are the inspired words from Gods own mind. They are complete and whole and only what is needed to lead an erring sinner to our Lord Jesus Christ, and instruct that sinner in what is required of him to do to obtain salvation.
You might find it interesting to study where the Bible came from, especially the New Testament. The following article is summarizing things to significantly, but most of the details are correct insofar as we can know. It's missing a lot of details, but it will suffice. New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes the NIV got it wrong, and it has to do with how we are to be/think/reason, not how Jesus IS.
There are no lessons for Jesus in the bible, it is for our benefit.
The key phrases are "Let this mind be in you" and "who thought it Not robbery to be equal"
The message is oneness, and how the message of Jesus is to bring us all to oneness.
The NIV butchers the truth that is being presented...imo
So basically you believe there are other Inspired works in the world?
Do tell me what they are so that I may know what was the term used?.....
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Dang isn't that the words perfect and thoroughly up there in that verse? Maybe my English is a bit rusty but I think i remember what those words mean.
What about the 300 or so years before the Council of Carthage decided what was scripture? Did those Christians have imperfect scripture?
Last edited by OhioNative; 02-15-2008 at 07:44 PM..
Yes the NIV got it wrong, and it has to do with how we are to be/think/reason, not how Jesus IS.
There are no lessons for Jesus in the bible, it is for our benefit.
The key phrases are "Let this mind be in you" and "who thought it Not robbery to be equal"
The message is oneness, and how the message of Jesus is to bring us all to oneness.
The NIV butchers the truth that is being presented...imo
godspeed,
freedom
So by your logic because one or more Translations of the Bible contain errors that means that the Scriptures themselves contain error?
If you find a translation that is full of errors go to one that doesn't. But Don't lump them all into that category. We have as far as anyone knows Greek originals. And as we all know there was a reason for this and that is because Greek was a very precise language.
Besides that fact that do you honestly believe that God allows no true copies or translations of His Word to exist as he intended them to?
You honestly believe He would let millions of people never have access to His true Word?
"Oh sorry yall you can't go to heaven. Why you ask. Well you see those monks back in the 600's got the translation wrong and I just said what the heck I'll let them run with it. Corrections? Why would I do that I gave it to you once and you messed it up. So everyone here born after 675AD Please move to the left side your all goats."
But this verse never says "The Scriptures are perfect." The words "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished" are not being used to describe the Scriptures. They are being used to describe "the man of God". I don't think anyone here is going to disagree -- "the man of God" is the Christian seeking to become more Christlike. And what is Paul telling Timothy? That the scriptures are highly valuable leading a Christian believer to godliness, perfection, and good works.
Not only does this passage of scripture not say that "the Scriptures are perfect." It never uses the word "Bible." So the premise that this verse is inferring that the Bible is perfect is unsustainable -- unless you draw a bunch of conclusions and infer a number of "implied" meanings (which you have done most certainly done.)
Ok if these verses apply to man as you say, you expose a flaw in your argument. How is man to become more like Christ without the Scriptures to show/tell him how? If Man is to become perfect and thoroughly furnished in all good works, he must have a tool for that. That tool is the perfect example of Christ. And how do we know he is perfect? Because it is revealed to us within the the Scriptures.
Tell me one person that knows the following without Scripture to tell them about it:
Who God is.
Who Jesus is.
Who the Holy Spirit is.
What a Christian is?
What is God's Grace?
What is Salvation?
How am I saved?
What is The Church?
Who was Noah?
Why was his family the only ones saved?
Who was Moses?
Why was the temple?
What did all the animal sacrifices point to the cross?
Need I go on?
And as far as worshiping the Bible. I do not worship my Bible I revere it. Why? Because without it I can not know how or whom to worship. The Father, Son, and the Spirit are revealed to me from within the Holy Scriptures. I worship the one and true Living God. Nothing else.
As I stated before 66 books over hundreds of years and NO contradictions.
You cant find 10 people that can pass the exact same simple message across a room much less hundreds of years.
I am truly saddened that there are Christians out there that believe their God has left them to the whimsical translations of a select few "Enlightened" monks in the Dark Ages.
And I can already guess a rebuttal argument.
The Holy Spirit Will guide you to all truth.
Well let me ask you something . How do you even know that there be a Holy Spirit unless you learned it from the Scriptures. How do you know that isn't one of the sections that some guy somewhere 1400 years ago said "Yea thats the ticket...... I'll call it the Holy Spirit"
Once you crack the door open on something as fundamental as whether or not the Bible is the written form of the spoken word of God. Then where do you stop?
I'll end with this.
Why would my God let be believe a flawed history about him? Is he not a Living God? Don't you think the Most Supreme Being in the Universe would want to set the record straight?
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