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So by your logic because one or more Translations of the Bible contain errors that means that the Scriptures themselves contain error?
God's infallable word is within us, we have the privelege of asking, seeking, and knocking...logic is irrellevant, the example stands on its own.
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If you find a translation that is full of errors go to one that doesn't. But Don't lump them all into that category. We have as far as anyone knows Greek originals. And as we all know there was a reason for this and that is because Greek was a very precise language.
You asked for an example. I gave you one very obvious one, some are subtle some are obvious, the point is, the letter killeth, the spirit maketh alive.
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Besides that fact that do you honestly believe that God allows no true copies or translations of His Word to exist as he intended them to?
You honestly believe He would let millions of people never have access to His true Word?
I honestly believe that man meddles, and will be held accountable, and that accurate translations exist, not perfect ones. God has written His word in our hearts, and not until the 1500's did man have fairly equal access to the written word. God did not forsake the billions before then, why would he ever forsake now.
Books were never the only way to learn from God, He put a seed of himself in everyone of us.
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"Oh sorry yall you can't go to heaven. Why you ask. Well you see those monks back in the 600's got the translation wrong and I just said what the heck I'll let them run with it. Corrections? Why would I do that I gave it to you once and you messed it up. So everyone here born after 675AD Please move to the left side your all goats."
Why would my God let be believe a flawed history about him? Is he not a Living God? Don't you think the Most Supreme Being in the Universe would want to set the record straight?
God could easily set the record straight by coming down and explaining everything face to face and answering every question one at a time. But instead, He spoke in parables and symbols which, for example, in the book of the Revelation EVERYBODY has a different take on. No joke - like I think you said - 31,000 denominations? All from the same words?
Of course, as you pointed out - it's not God's fault that 31,000 denominations interpret the scriptures differently but, on the other hand, if it was written for man - why write it in a way that is so open to conflict?
As I pointed out in the 'eternal security' thread, Jesus said not ONE the Father has given Him will be lost. Then the writer of Hebrews says if you sin willfully after salvation, there's no more sacrifice for sins - which some are saying means you can lose your salvation. Then John says "But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father". And He also says if you're born of God you don't sin and if you sin you are of the devil.
Honestly, none of those scriptures conflict TO ME, but just reading them without spiritual insight will leave you scratching your head.
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter.
My BIG contention with mainstream interpretation is you have a God willing to 'allow' His own children to agonize in a burning fire for eternity, which is utter nonsense. Again, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter. It's our job to search them out.
blessings,
Byron
Last edited by firstborn888; 02-15-2008 at 10:52 PM..
Reason: spelling
God has written His word in our hearts, and not until the 1500's did man have fairly equal access to the written word. God did not forsake the billions before then, why would he ever forsake now.
Books were never the only way to learn from God, He put a seed of himself in everyone of us.
Even though I side with errancy camp, I do see the point of the other view ie: Where does it stop? Where does it start? How do you know what to believe?
I think the above example is great. I think there were men of God through those dark ages who were fully furnished by God in spite of the lack of scripture.
Again, I love the Bible. It changes my life everyday, but it's just a tool in God's hands. Only the living breathing God is infallible and perfect.
God could easily set the record straight by coming down and explaining everything face to face and answering every question one at a time. But instead, He spoke in parables and symbols which, for example, in the book of the Revelation EVERYBODY has a different take on. No joke - like I think you said - 31,000 denominations? All from the same words?
Of course, as you pointed out - it's not God's fault that 31,000 denominations interpret the scriptures differently but, on the other hand, if it was written for man - why write it in a way that is so open to conflict?
As I pointed out in the 'eternal security' thread, Jesus said not ONE the Father has given Him will be lost. Then the writer of Hebrews says if you sin willfully after salvation, there's no more sacrifice for sins - which some are saying means you can lose your salvation. Then John says "But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father". And He also says if you're born of God you don't sin and if you sin you are of the devil.
Honestly, none of those scriptures conflict TO ME, but just reading them without spiritual insight will leave you scratching your head.
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter.
My BIG contention with mainstream interpretation is you have a God willing to 'allow' His own children to agonize in a burning fire for eternity, which is utter nonsense. Again, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter. It's our job to search them out.
blessings,
Byron
Why would my God let be believe a flawed history about him? Is he not a Living God? Don't you think the Most Supreme Being in the Universe would want to set the record straight?
IMO the errors exist for a purpose. If full reliance is based solely upon text then that is where your foundation will remain.
The revelation/interpretation is of the Holy Spirit and you can easily have 6.7Bn versions. The church has tried to box thought and revelation into a corporate mindset which IMO is in opposition to the Will of God. He is the teacher and teaches the layer appropriate for today.
Each of our walks are unique so why can the "interpretation" not be unique or change sometime in the future?
God's infallable word is within us, we have the privelege of asking, seeking, and knocking...logic is irrellevant, the example stands on its own.
You asked for an example. I gave you one very obvious one, some are subtle some are obvious, the point is, the letter killeth, the spirit maketh alive.
I honestly believe that man meddles, and will be held accountable, and that accurate translations exist, not perfect ones. God has written His word in our hearts, and not until the 1500's did man have fairly equal access to the written word. God did not forsake the billions before then, why would he ever forsake now.
Books were never the only way to learn from God, He put a seed of himself in everyone of us.
No comment on this....
godspeed,
freedom
You gave me no contradiction. You Gave me a translation error. There is a HUGE difference in the two.
And why did you not even touch what I said about trying to know God without the Scriptures? Without them you wouldn't even so much as know there was only one God. i.e Greeks, Romans, Egyptians,Native Americans...ect
They worshiped everything under the sun....heck they even worshiped the sun.
You gave me no contradiction. You Gave me a translation error. There is a HUGE difference in the two.
A contradiction in translations. If someone thinks that every translation is the word of God, i disagree with that.
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And why did you not even touch what I said about trying to know God without the Scriptures? Without them you wouldn't even so much as know there was only one God. i.e Greeks, Romans, Egyptians,Native Americans...ect
They worshiped everything under the sun....heck they even worshiped the sun.
Because i agree with you, the bible is a wonderful tool. It has been a blessing to me and millions of people.
Ok if these verses apply to man as you say, you expose a flaw in your argument. How is man to become more like Christ without the Scriptures to show/tell him how? If Man is to become perfect and thoroughly furnished in all good works, he must have a tool for that. That tool is the perfect example of Christ. And how do we know he is perfect? Because it is revealed to us within the the Scriptures.
Tell me one person that knows the following without Scripture to tell them about it:
Who God is.
Who Jesus is.
Who the Holy Spirit is.
What a Christian is?
What is God's Grace?
What is Salvation?
How am I saved?
What is The Church?
Who was Noah?
Why was his family the only ones saved?
Who was Moses?
Why was the temple?
What did all the animal sacrifices point to the cross?
Need I go on?
These teachings are preserved obviously. And that is KEY. The teaching of God are intact. We have more than enough to come to know God, who IS perfect.
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And as far as worshiping the Bible. I do not worship my Bible I revere it. Why? Because without it I can not know how or whom to worship. The Father, Son, and the Spirit are revealed to me from within the Holy Scriptures. I worship the one and true Living God. Nothing else.
To ascribe perfection and omniscience to anything other than God is dangerous. Catholics say they do not worship Mary when they do. You say you do not worship the Bible, but do you? Only you can answer that question of course.
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As I stated before 66 books over hundreds of years and NO contradictions.
You cant find 10 people that can pass the exact same simple message across a room much less hundreds of years.
Here is a contradiction for you. I've already expressed my distaste for pointing it out.
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Matthew 27:3-5
3. Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned , repented himself , and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4. Saying , I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said , What is that to us? see thou to that.
5. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed , and went and hanged himself .
6. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said , It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8. Wherefore that field was called , The field of blood, unto this day.
Acts 1:16-18
16. Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled , which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
So in one account, Judas threw the money at the feet of the Jewish leaders, went out and hung himself. The Priests and Scribes take this "blood money" and buy a field and use it to bury the dead, because the money is unclean.
In the second account, Judas Iscarriot himself purchases a field. No mention is made of him hanging himself. At some point, whether by accident or on purpose, Judas falls headlong (whether accidentally or on purpose, we can't know for certain) and he bursts assunder and his bowels gushed out.
Did Judas kill himself or did he accidentally fall off a cliff onto sharp rocks or somesuch? Did Judas purchase the "field of blood" or was it the Priests and Scribes of the Jews?
It is important to note, the contradictions are not important beyond one important matter -- you cannot rely 100% on the Biblical text and you have to lean more heavily upon God and the Holy Spirit to complete your understanding. We have enough in the Bible to lead us to the source of pure truth.
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I am truly saddened that there are Christians out there that believe their God has left them to the whimsical translations of a select few "Enlightened" monks in the Dark Ages.
Bear in mind I am equally against the notion that the Bible is closed to all further additions. But if you ARE of that opinion, then yes, it would be heartbreaking.
"Christ came, lived, taught, died for our sins, dropped off a book and then abandoned them to figure it out for themselves."
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And I can already guess a rebuttal argument.
The Holy Spirit Will guide you to all truth.
Well let me ask you something . How do you even know that there be a Holy Spirit unless you learned it from the Scriptures. How do you know that isn't one of the sections that some guy somewhere 1400 years ago said "Yea thats the ticket...... I'll call it the Holy Spirit"
Once you crack the door open on something as fundamental as whether or not the Bible is the written form of the spoken word of God. Then where do you stop?
I'll end with this.
Why would my God let me believe a flawed history about him? Is he not a Living God? Don't you think the Most Supreme Being in the Universe would want to set the record straight?
I believe Christ will set the record straight when he comes again. Who knows? Maybe he will send prophets before then. That's a tricky matter of course, because anyone can claim to be a prophet or apostle or whatever you like.
I do not invent the facts and I can't possibly speak for the intentions of God on these matters. I know God will make it right in the end.
As I've already said, the teachings are intact. The basics to know to seek God are there. God is the source of perfect truth. The Bible (as we have come to call it) is a means to that end. Transcriptional and Translational errors have been diligently avoided over the centuries, however they have come about anyways. Significant differences exist between accounts of the same events. Handing the Bible a "seal of perfecton" is not only illogical, it is contradictory. We know and trust that God cannot contradict himself. The Bible, on the other hand, never said it would not contradict itself.
Was the field purchased with the 30 pieces of silver? The answer is yes. Now Judas throws the money back at the priests. If they go and buy the field could one not say that Judas' money was used to purchase the field? I don't think that is such a stretch.
Now for the second part you provided. Now if Judas hung himself and no one was there to remove the body would he not after 2 days or so burst open from the buildup of gases and fall headlong onto the ground? There to Rot?
I don't see any contradiction within these verses. I see one set giving certain details and the other set giving a few different details.
We have examples of this within the Gospels. Would you not agree?
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