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Every now and again I like to ask the question did God know Adam "would" sin before he was created? To this day I don't think I've heard or met anyone who said God didn't know. Of course He knew right? Well, if God did know, it begs the second question of why did he create Adam to begin with? Why not create a person that he knew would obey through and through of their own free will? This is a good question because from what the Bible tell us, God gets no pleasure in dealing out his wrath. There's no real benefit in creating someone who will go against you, especially if in the end that someone ultimately never returns to the proper path. So we know God receives no pleasure in seeing the wicked perish, but as the Bible tell us God wants the wicked to turn away from that path and live. That being the case, if God knew Adam "would" sin and that the wicked "would" perish, why then create man? Did God know Adam "would" sin?
By now you've noticed I put the word "would" in quotations marks. It implies that time is fixed and the future is set. Pretty much everything happening right now was going to happen before any of us ever existed. Now while that sounds amazing, is it really logical at all? Even on a supernatural level of understanding things, that concept is totally ridiculous. It would make as much sense if I said God and Satan are actually the same person. Obviously I don't agree God and Satan are the same person, and pretty much everyone would agree with me, but if I were to say time is not fixed and God did not know Adam "would" sin, I couldn't find one person to agree with me. (Whether Christian or not) So again, I bring this topic up every once in a while to see others take on it.
Heavenese, the knowledge of God, his omniscience, is beyond description
and certainly beyond our mortal ability to comprehend.
Still, omniscience is only one characteristic of the Godhead,
and all divine attributes are subject to the Divine Will, including
omniscience.
This means the free will of God's creatures, including angels and men
is a gift bestowed by God in His wisdom and grace which may supercede
His optional omniscience in all matters. After all, God also has free will.
Heavenese, the knowledge of God, his omniscience, is beyond description
and certainly beyond our mortal ability to comprehend.
Still, omniscience is only one characteristic of the Godhead,
and all divine attributes are subject to the Divine Will, including
omniscience.
This means the free will of God's creatures, including angels and men,
and the first man, and the fallen one, are gifts bestowed by God in
His wisdom and grace which may supercede His optional omniscience
in all matters. After all, God also has free will.
I have to ask you is time fixed? The only way for God to know Adam's actions is if those actions already existed even before Adam's own existence. You also said God has free will. That being the case, God could do whatever he wanted, including not creating Adam. Who would judge God for that? What consequence would there be on God for not creating Adam? Determining what one believes concerning eternal judgment, I think all of us who are christian would rather have never existed. (i.e Adam never existed)
I don't think digging into God's motives for creation is a very fruitful thing to do to be honest. I think it already fried many peoples brains out.. Yes God predestined all things including our fall and salvation of the elect by Jesus Christ and yes man has a free will, we will never be able to understand how those two come together. Yet they are both true, but we shouldn't try to pry into the things God did not reveal imo, they are too high for us to understand. And I am for one very happy I was created , God is so good, I am looking forward to the New Heaven and the New Earth! I think anyone who has put their faith in Jesus Christ will say the same.. unless they are in a Job-like depression perhaps.
I believe that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I believe that He knew Adam and Eve would transgress and disobey the instructions He'd given them, but if you will note, I did not say that they "sinned." I don't believe it was possible for them to "sin" until they had the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing the difference between good and evil and then voluntarily choosing to take the wrong path is what sinning is all about.
God put Adam and Eve in the Garden and allowed the most cunning and deceitful being ever to have existed to promise them that they would be like Him (i.e. God) simply by eating a piece of fruit. It's not at all surprising that they succumbed to this temptation, and in the long run, I believe it was a good thing that they did. Without a knowledge of good and evil, they could never truly progress. You couldn't even say they were choosing the good, because without an alternative, it wouldn't have been a choice at all.
They did exactly what God knew they would do, and exactly what He knew they had to do in order to eventually obtain something much better than they had in the Garden. God's plan is 100% unselfish and for our benefit. "The Fall" actually just the first step in an ascent towards immortality and eternal life.
"The Fall" actually just the first step in an ascent towards immortality and eternal life.
I knew the mormons believe some strange things, but it's amazing how you can figure that losing immortality and bringing death into existence is a positive thing and even an ascent towards immortality and eternal life?! Do you have a different Book of Genesis?
I knew the mormons believe some strange things, but it's amazing how you can figure that losing immortality and bringing death into existence is a positive thing and even an ascent towards immortality and eternal life?! Do you have a different Book of Genesis?
"Strange" is in the eye of the beholder, Chanokh, and I could say the same about your beliefs if I were so inclined. We use the King James Version of the Bible, so we have exactly the same book of Genesis that you do (or at least that many Christians do). We also have modern revelation, though, which provides us with a more comprehensive picture than Genesis alone does. Genesis 3 moves into Genesis 4 and tells us virtually nothing about Adam and Eve from the time they were cast out of the Garden until Cain and Abel were grown men. As a matter of fact, the Genesis account of the Fall leaves many questions unanswered, and raises others -- such as the ones addressed in this thread.
You said:
Quote:
Yes God predestined all things including our fall and salvation of the elect by Jesus Christ and yes man has a free will, we will never be able to understand how those two come together.
I believe Mormonism sheds some light on that very issue. Of course, when you simply dismiss it as "strange," you can never get to the point where it makes sense.
Every now and again I like to ask the question did God know Adam "would" sin before he was created? To this day I don't think I've heard or met anyone who said God didn't know.
Well, let me the first then. God didn't know Adam and Eve would sin when He created them. That would be like building a beautiful house with the full intention of burning it to the ground when complete. Is there a Bible scripture that says mankind has free choice? No. Why? No one knows.
Yet since I have the choice to say I have a choice, I think therefore I am.
No I have no idea what light mormonism has in this issue, but I don't consider mormonism to be Christianity. Yes strange! To start with it's a fleshly polytheistic religion that allows polygamy against Bible teaching, and promises celestial sex in afterlife. Worst of all, you believe God is a created being and Jesus is a created being. That God had sex with a mother and they had baby Jesus born to them as a God in heaven. J. Smith declared: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and have supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea..." (Joseph Smith)
And that just scratches the surface, but I don't want to derail the thread. I just wanna say the Bible is really the Word of God, and it's enough to live by, does not need any other added revelation. And the Bible doesn't explain predestination vs free will, it never even bothers to try to explain that. So your 'light' probably comes from mormon theology which I think is demonic, sorry.
J. Smith declared: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and have supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea..." (Joseph Smith)
I was wondering if you could attach the source for this quote?
It appears suspect.
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, God is so good, I am looking forward to the New Heaven and the New Earth! I think anyone who has put their faith in Jesus Christ will say the same.. unless they are in a Job-like depression perhaps.
