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Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 Did god know everything satan will do before it created satan?
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Eusebius: Of course He did.
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Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
Scripture?
Isaiah 46:10. God declares the end from the beginning. One Who declares the end from the beginning is the One Who controls everything from the beginning to the end. So He not only knew what Satan would do before He created Satan, He made sure what he did would come to pass.
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Quote:TLA 1Sam15:
Can satan do anything god doesn't approve of?
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Eusebius: Satan can only do that which God assigns him to do. (see Job).
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Not assigns, allows. In Job Satan was the one that brought up the challenge first. God allowed Satan to prove his point. Never did God tell Satan, 'Hey Satan come over there and dump curses on Job.'
God set up the entire situation so Satan would come before Him to loge a complaint about Job and it was God who first inquired of Satan concerning Job.
Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it. So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
(Job 1:7-8)
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Job spoke the truth, "Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, And the Almighty to act unjustly!" (Job 34:10) For Jehovah to invite someone to do something wicked would make Him wicked. According to scripture and even Job, God being wicked is 'unthinkable'.
That wasn't Job who said that. It was Elihu, one of Job's friends, and God said that Job's friends spoke that which is wrong concerning Him.
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 Being saved from God? No, being saved from sin that in turn incurs death. To turn from wrong doing is to turn towards God. There is no saving for those that turn away from God.
As I brought out in another thread. There's a hidden cliff. There's a sign at the cliff that says, "Danger Cliff! Don't jump in, you will die." A person ignores the sign, jumps in anyway and dies. Who's to blame? Gravity? The sign? The person that put up the sign? Or the person that decided to jump off the cliff? If a person doesn't fall because they read the sign and avoids the cliff, who is the savior? Isn't it the sign maker?
Folks have to realize there is a choice in all of this. Oh but there is no eternal fire BTW.
Part of this is this makes sense and part of it does not. When you walk off the cliff does gravity get angry at you. If there is someone who cares about you and has the means to save you then what does he do?
1. Say, "stupid immoral creep deserves to die for making gravity angry at him."
2. Say, "I can save you, but you have to do what I say even if it doesn't make sense to you right now."
The latter is the God who is saving us from ourselves. Clearly those who walk off cliffs have some seriously self-destructive habits.
The analogy is about the choices we make and that neither the cliff, the sign nor sign maker are at fault. Indeed perhaps a person does have some self-destructive habits. In fact, it seems mankind as a whole has some pretty self-destructive habits. I mean look at the wars and huge mistakes when it comes to the Earth's environment. There are not always intentional and sometimes they are. Like the these hoverboards that are catching on fire. Which is it? Greed of the manufacturer in pushing a faulty product or they just didn't know?
The cliff and sign really have no say in this analogy. The person and the sign maker do. Let say God is the sign maker and we are the person with sign reading issues. The sign maker might ask, "Why didn't you do what the sign said?" What will our answer be? There are many answers. Yet only answers that I'm sure the sign maker will not be happy with is "I saw it, and all your other signs have been right, but I still don't trust you." or "I saw it but I don't care, I want to do what I want to." Should the sign maker take the blame for when such a person falls off a cliff? I don't even think the sign maker is mad. More like supremely disappointed and sad.
I like the cliff analogy because it puts what seem to be complex ideas into terms most people can understand.
So let take one of those complex ideas for example.
The sign (commandment): "Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you." Matt 5:43-45
The cliff and gravity (the boundary and consequence): Hate, War and death
So, do we pay attention to this sign or not? If we cross it, who is to blame? The person that made the warning sign? Or the person that jumps off the cliff?
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 07-07-2016 at 12:15 PM..
We are talking about an all powerful and someone almost as powerful as god.
Incorrect. Some of us think of Satan that way and others do not.
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Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15
One or the other can easily harden my heart, right?
Only because of bad habits of thought and behavior which act like buttons to control your emotions. When you get to the point where to react so robotically to your environment, then it seems only too fair for other to step up and push the button which get the best results.
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Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15
There even written documentation that god does it and the devil was created to be the deceaver, no?
Incorrect. Lucifer was created an angel -- a servant or tool to do as God commands. It was Adam and Eve who chose to blame him for their own mistake. So God gave him the role of adversary (meaning of "Satan") in Genesis 3. I think the point is to learn that passing the buck in this way does not accomplish anything good.
The analogy is about the choices we make and that neither the cliff, the sign nor sign maker are at fault. Indeed perhaps a person does have some self-destructive habits. In fact, it seems mankind as a whole has some pretty self-destructive habits. I mean look at the wars and huge mistakes when it comes to the Earth's environment. There are not always intentional and sometimes they are. Like the these hoverboards that are catching on fire. Which is it? Greed of the manufacturer in pushing a faulty product or they just didn't know?
The cliff and sign really have no say in this analogy. The person and the sign maker do. Let say God is the sign maker and we are the person with sign reading issues. The sign maker might ask, "Why didn't you do what the sign said?" What will our answer be? There are many answers. Yet only answers that I'm sure the sign maker will not be happy with is "I saw it, and all your other signs have been right, but I still don't trust you." or "I saw it but I don't care, I want to do what I want to." Should the sign maker take the blame for when such a person falls off a cliff? I don't even think the sign maker is mad. More like supremely disappointed and sad.
I like the cliff analogy because it puts what seem to be complex ideas into terms most people can understand.
So let take one of those complex ideas for example.
The sign (commandment): "Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you." Matt 5:43-45
The cliff and gravity (the boundary and consequence): Hate, War and death
So, do we pay attention to this sign or not? If we cross it, who is to blame? The person that made the warning sign? Or the person that jumps off the cliff?
The problem is that the criminal pointing a gun in your face is also "giving you a choice". Capitulate and do whatever evil things he demands or someone dies. It is your choice. Right?
WRONG! It is a lie. It is his choice whether he pulls the trigger or not. In fact, his behavior proves that he is someone we should not be listening to, and we should not be giving such a monster what he wants!
Gravity however is a fixed rule which exists for very good reasons. We are supposed to learn the rule and live by it and not expect it suddenly stop working whenever convenient.
So that is the question. Which god do you worship? The man with the gun or the sign painter warning you about a the danger ahead. Does the sign painter get angry and want to make sure people get splat on the ground because you didn't pay attention to his sign? I don't think so!
So we agree on the salvation from sin and self-destructive habits part of this. But then you turn around and change it to salvation from God because he is going to get angry with you. In this you sound like the criminal with the gun trying to convince us that he is like the law of gravity and only we are to blame if we do not do as he says. To me it sounds like a trick to facilitate using Christianity to blackball people into doing what you want when the need arises.
Last edited by mitchellmckain; 07-07-2016 at 01:37 PM..
Incorrect. Some of us think of Satan that way and others do not.
Only because of bad habits of thought and behavior which act like buttons to control your emotions. When you get to the point where to react so robotically to your environment, then it seems only too fair for other to step up and push the button which get the best results.
Incorrect. Lucifer was created an angel -- a servant or tool to do as God commands. It was Adam and Eve who chose to blame him for their own mistake. So God gave him the role of adversary (meaning of "Satan") in Genesis 3. I think the point is to learn that passing the buck in this way does not accomplish anything good.
I agree with much of this and it's good to see someone using their powers of reason rather than the dogma so many cling to.
Satan is not as powerful as God. Remember Job who had a protective 'hedge' around him. While it was taken down for a bit so Job could prove his love and loyalty to God and also prove Satan a liar. After the ordeal Job got his 'hedge' back. It would make sense that perhaps all of mankind right now has some sort of 'hedge'. After all, if Satan were as powerful as God why doesn't he just kill us all? There is also accounts of people being possessed. Why doesn't he just do that? Perhaps God has put an end to that? Beside, Satan wants us to be able choose, and to force the choice not to choose God wouldn't prove his point.
Everything that kills us today. All of it from growing old and dying to being killed by a murder to dying from our own mistakes.
When is this salvation supposed to take place?
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Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
It means saved from ourselves and all of our self-destructive habits.
How can it be MORE clear in the day and age in which we live?
We stockpile weapons of mass destruction enough to kill everyone on the planet many times over. Isn't that a self-destructive habit we are desperately in need of salvation from?
We poison our air, water and food sources. Isn't that a self-destructive habit we are desperately in need of salvation from?
These are simply the most obvious examples, but the list goes on and on and on...
How do you believe that God effects this salvation from yourself and your self-destructive habits? I assume you do not mean it is by simply believing "correct" doctrines, based on your other posts.
The problem is that the criminal pointing a gun in your face is also "giving you a choice". Capitulate and do whatever evil things he demands or someone dies. It is your choice. Right?
WRONG! It is a lie. It is his choice whether he pulls the trigger or not. In fact, his behavior proves that he is someone we should not be listening to, and we should not be giving such a monster what he wants!
But now your saying the gunman has ignored a sign. "Love your neighbor". The gravity is that when he is caught is prison or death. Remember we are talking about choosing to do wrong. The guy with a gun to his head has no choice so he had none nothing wrong and is blameless.
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Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
Gravity however is a fixed rule which exists for very good reasons. We are supposed to learn the rule and live by it and not expect it suddenly stop working whenever convenient.
So are God's principles. They are fixed. Most laws change but one. One law that will never change, found in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Matthew 22:37, 38.
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Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
So that is the question. Which god do you worship? The man with the gun or the sign painter warning you about a the danger ahead. Does the sign painter get angry and want to make sure to get splat on the ground because you didn't pay attention to his sign? I don't think so!
Are you saying the warning signs are useless? You're adding the 'man with a gun'. Are you a person that sees the sign and ignores it? Or are you saying you want a gun to you head? Sounds like to me you want to be in danger. Why?
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Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
So we agree on the salvation from sin and self-destructive habits part of this. But then you turn around and change it to salvation from God because he is going to get angry with you. In this you sound like the criminal with the gun trying to convince us that he is like the law of gravity and only we are to blame if we do not do as he says. To me it sounds like a trick to facilitate using Christianity to blackball people into doing what you want when the need arises.
Trick? Do what they want? Man with a gun angry with you? What in the world are you talking about?
Im only talking about things that are guaranteed to harm you if you ignore the warnings. You seem to be taking it way off the basic idea. Which is if everyone listened to the basic warnings we wouldn't have to worry about harm or evil at all. There would be no evil.
I agree with much of this and it's good to see someone using their powers of reason rather than the dogma so many cling to.
Satan is not as powerful as God.
The angels are certainly powerful compared to us it is true. But the finite (no matter how great) compared to the infinite is still nothing by comparison.
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Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
Beside, Satan wants us to be able choose, and to force the choice not to choose God wouldn't prove his point.
I cannot credit your imagination concerning what Satan wants.
Justification in which we give our consent for gift may be quick, but the the removal of bad habits (i.e. Sanctification) is long, grueling, painful process.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
How do you believe that God effects this salvation from yourself and your self-destructive habits?
I assume you do not mean it is by simply believing "correct" doctrines, based on your other posts.
You are correct in your assumption. I also do not believe it is magic or indulgences.
God's role in our life is that of a parent and teacher, only he has all the universe as his classroom and tools. His objective is to change our heart and habits from the self-destructive (death) to the self-creative (life). But you can say that becoming a man in the person of Jesus was a critically important lesson.
I cannot credit your imagination concerning what Satan wants.
"the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will." 2 Tim 2:26
Satan wants to trap people into choosing to do his will. The Bible has all the needed warning signs to avoid these traps.
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