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Hi tdinh would you think it's a fair comment to say if they wouldn't be persuaded if one rose from the dead, that Bill Weise's story would hardly likely to be persuasive too ?.
The reason i asked about your buddy was to find out what he believed in that changed him, did he believe in a message about Jesus or did he believe in a message about hell, because believing in the grace of God will most definetly bring about the right change in our lives, believing in eternal hell won't.
Sure, but at the same time, alot of people do believe Jesus was raised from the dead and yet do not believe in hell.
However, on a similar note, their was a young man who listened to Bill's story, believed, and initiated his walk with God after listening to it. That essentially was a seed planted in his heart with which he came to Christ.
I have stated to Firstborn888, and I totally agree, that God's kindness leads one to repentance, that I am not doubting. But because I believe that doesn't mean that I should, "throw out the baby with the bath water." Or, because I believe that that I shouldn't talk about it as to not offend one. In all actuality, the Bible can be offensive to some because of one's lifestyle. People still have to be aware of it, and one must teach according to the truth of the Word.
But if I opened the thread stating "hell is real and if you don't come to God, you are going there." That would be foolish and I would never do that. The thread was about one man's experience, and the relational aspect of the Word of God. I am simply stating that I believe it's real and I am backing it up with scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Hi tdinh would you think it's a fair comment to say if they wouldn't be persuaded if one rose from the dead, that Bill Weise's story would hardly likely to be persuasive too ?.
The reason i asked about your buddy was to find out what he believed in that changed him, did he believe in a message about Jesus or did he believe in a message about hell, because believing in the grace of God will most definetly bring about the right change in our lives, believing in eternal hell won't.
I didn't doubt that you did not consider them friends, I was just wondering if you were
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdinh
Sure, but at the same time, alot of people do believe Jesus was raised from the dead and yet do not believe in hell.
However, on a similar note, their was a young man who listened to Bill's story, believed, and initiated his walk with God after listening to it. That essentially was a seed planted in his heart with which he came to Christ.
I have stated to Firstborn888, and I totally agree, that God's kindness leads one to repentance, that I am not doubting. But because I believe that doesn't mean that I should, "throw out the baby with the bath water." Or, because I believe that that I shouldn't talk about it as to not offend one. In all actuality, the Bible can be offensive to some because of one's lifestyle. People still have to be aware of it, and one must teach according to the truth of the Word.
But if I opened the thread stating "hell is real and if you don't come to God, you are going there." That would be foolish and I would never do that. The thread was about one man's experience, and the relational aspect of the Word of God. I am simply stating that I believe it's real and I am backing it up with scripture.
You have done no such thing. The ancient Jews never had a belief in an after life . . . let alone an ET one. You have reproduced the standard mainstream corruptions and misuse of scripture and translations that characterizes the last 2000+ years of misunderstanding God . . . and rejecting Jesus' message and example of the TRUE NATURE of God. You cannot have an understanding of our loving God and believe in ET or Annihilation, period. It is easy to claim that you do . . . but that simply means you have not thought very deeply about the implications of infinite torture or annihilation with no possibility of it achieving anything correctional. To contemplate an infinite consequence for a short finite life requires a corruption of the concept of justice that is unconscionable. "God's ways are not our ways . . ." "God works in mysterious ways . . ." and other idiocies simply do not cut it.
If! ... Hell/ET/Annihilation is a myth ... Does that make Christs sacrifice any less valuable to you?
Here is a question ...
Do you believe that if what you put your faith into, that is to say, in everlasting torture/literal hell/obliteration - annihilation, is not true, does that make the work of Christ on the cross any less potent if it(Your faith is unending torture/annihilation) is misplaced?
Does torturing people make God more real to you?
It is written ... Our unbelief does not make ineffectual the promise of God ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-18-2010 at 01:38 AM..
Didn't Jesus come to save us from the wages of sin?
What does God through His word tell us those wages are? hell? No,.....death.
God didn't tell Adam about the "firey" torture in hell, He told Adam he would die.
Just gotta believe the scriptures
Sir, have you read the entire Bible before? So as I stated in my prior reply that Hell/Sheol in the Old Testament references the same scope as Hades in the New Testament. This, again, my friend I will reference you scriptures from the Old Testament. But again, though the ancient Jews may have not believed in a hell or heaven or even beyond the scope of the after life, does not make it unreal, for there are numerous scriptures to back that up. So, let’s delve into the following, again, since you failed to read it in my past post.
Also, I am going to only post Old Testament scriptures:
(Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Job 24:19 Drought and heat snatch away the snow waters; so does Sheol those who have sinned. Psalm 9:17 The wicked will *return to *Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God. Psalm 31:17 O Lord, let me not be put to shame, for I call upon you; let the wicked be put to shame; let them go silently to Sheol.
Eze 31:17 They also went down to Sheol with it, to those who are slain by the sword; yes, those who were its arm, who lived under its shadow among the nations.
Now, these are just a few scriptures in the below, but this is one of many that though the Israelites may have known about an after life, it shows that people who were alive were swallowed up into Sheol, or the pit or Hell in this verse-
(Moses is speaking here) Numbers 16:29-35
"Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord. If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. And all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, "Lest the earth swallow us up!" And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.
Now if you want the same referenced meaning of Sheol translated into the New Testament, that’s easy. Jesus talked more about hell, I believe from memory, then anybody in the New Testament.
Again, let me post the root meaning of Sheol, in which the word is rendered “hell,” or “hades” which has the same scope of meaning- the place of disembodied spirits and sheol “the congregation of the dead,” Again, out of Jesus’ own mouth he talks about such a place, but you fail to believe. You want Greek and Hebrew meaning, here it is, but you fail to believe.
Hell:
derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Pro 30:15,16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen 37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31; 1Sa 2:6, etc.).
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Pro 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num 16:33; Job 24:19; Psa 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Psa 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21,22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num 16:30,33; Eze 31:15,16,17).
(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1Pe 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Mat 16:18; Rev 1:18), and it is downward (Mat 11:23; Luk 10:15).
(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Mat 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Mat 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luk 16:24, etc.).4
So you state the following: “but that simply means you have not thought very deeply about the implications of infinite torture or annihilation with no possibility of it achieving anything correctional. To contemplate an infinite consequence for a short finite life requires a corruption of the concept of justice that is unconscionable.”
And you know what, if I absolutely had zero knowledge of scripture, I may believe the lie. But guess what, that is not true.
Let me explain to you why in a riddle- if a costly gift was given, even though it is free, can be rejected, even though the one (the person whom the gift was given) thought it was accepted. The answer- The one who "accepted" the free gift never really accepted it according to the way the one who gave it said it needed to be accepted.
Let me ask you, what is or was the greatest gift that you have ever received? I am not sure or not if you are a Christian, but let’s say you were, you would then therefore state “the cross of Christ,” correct?
Now this gift was costly! Those who read the Bible know that Christ is infinite. He is the Author of all that has ever been from ancient times. He humbled Himself as a man, was spit on, beat up, but yet did not curse those He created those who did that to Him. For God had given this immense gift to those of the earth.
On the same note, because it is such a costly gift, for one to deny it would be detrimental. Out of Jesus’ own mouth He stated He wish people were hot (loved Him, adored Him, knew Him, followed Him) or cold (denied Him, rejected Him, ignored Him), because essentially they have chosen their own destinations, with Him (heaven) or without Him (hell), but what about one who is lukewarm- their fate is the same as the cold, He is going to spit them out of His mouth (Rev. 3:16). Explain that scripture to me, please. Or explain this to me Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
This gift is both awesome, but fearful! Awesome for those who accepted, and fearful for one to reject it. He did not send an angel or a great saint, He sent Himself, and guess what, those who do reject it will have a fate that is clearly explained in scripture.
As I have stated, let's put our own opinion aside and read into the Bible. I can stand on a major freeway and tell myself "their is no semi heading my way," but guess what when I get hit, it doesn't matter what my own opinion is about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You have done no such thing. The ancient Jews never had a belief in an after life . . . let alone an ET one. You have reproduced the standard mainstream corruptions and misuse of scripture and translations that characterizes the last 2000+ years of misunderstanding God . . . and rejecting Jesus' message and example of the TRUE NATURE of God. You cannot have an understanding of our loving God and believe in ET or Annihilation, period. It is easy to claim that you do . . . but that simply means you have not thought very deeply about the implications of infinite torture or annihilation with no possibility of it achieving anything correctional. To contemplate an infinite consequence for a short finite life requires a corruption of the concept of justice that is unconscionable. "God's ways are not our ways . . ." "God works in mysterious ways . . ." and other idiocies simply do not cut it.
tdinh, you posted a lot of verses that have been addressed many times in other threads. I will try to go through them as time allows.
First, gehenna. Gehenna is not talking about some place of endless torture in fire. It is not talking about hell.
What Jesus meant about Gehenna
Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].
Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?
NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.
No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).
The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:
[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom
In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.
Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.
This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".
So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.
Again, its helpful to remember what judgment is for: setting things right - teaching righteousness.
Matt 5
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
It is also referenced in here:
Mark 9
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
Notice EVERYONE will be salted with fire. Is everyone going to be "salted" with "hell"?
Again the word "hell" in these passages is translated from gehenna - meaning the valley of Hinnom.
So who here has cut of their hand or foot or cut out their eye? I hope you have or you are in danger of being thrown into the valley of Hinnom.
Ah, perhaps these passages are not meant to be taken literally? Jesus is talking spiritually. Spiritually speaking, it is thoughts and actions in our hearts (thinking, seeing with our heart) that lead us to sin. If we sin, we should cut those bad parts out of our heart (the hand, the eye) which cause us to sin so we will sin no more.
Gehenna in these passages is not referring to hell, it is a reference to the valley of Hinnom which was a place of great judgment - awful criminals were thrown there in disgrace.
Jesus is talking about judgment - and reaping what we sow. In effect the message is this:
It is better to correct ourselves (ie. cut out the bad parts of our actions) instead of having it done for us (reaping what we sow). This is what the fires of gehenna (spiritually speaking) represent.
The other key point is that EVERYONE will be salted with this fire. We all reap what we sow. And we will continue to reap what we sow until we cut out our eye/hand/foot (spiritually).
If we judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Remember: judgment is good. It teaches people righteousness. That is the purpose for judgment - setting things right.
i think back to the time i was entrenched in churchianity and i listened to the preacher in the pulpit and all the times this subject was preached about, they always stopped at 48, i can not recall ever hearing vs 49 discussed
Sir, have you read the entire Bible before? So as I stated in my prior reply that Hell/Sheol in the Old Testament references the same scope as Hades in the New Testament. This, again, my friend I will reference you scriptures from the Old Testament. But again, though the ancient Jews may have not believed in a hell or heaven or even beyond the scope of the after life, does not make it unreal, for there are numerous scriptures to back that up. So, let’s delve into the following, again, since you failed to read it in my past post.
Also, I am going to only post Old Testament scriptures:
(Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Job 24:19 Drought and heat snatch away the snow waters; so does Sheol those who have sinned. Psalm 9:17 The wicked will *return to *Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God. Psalm 31:17 O Lord, let me not be put to shame, for I call upon you; let the wicked be put to shame; let them go silently to Sheol.
Eze 31:17 They also went down to Sheol with it, to those who are slain by the sword; yes, those who were its arm, who lived under its shadow among the nations.
Now, these are just a few scriptures in the below, but this is one of many that though the Israelites may have known about an after life, it shows that people who were alive were swallowed up into Sheol, or the pit or Hell in this verse-
(Moses is speaking here) Numbers 16:29-35
"Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord. If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."
And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. And all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, "Lest the earth swallow us up!" And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.
Now if you want the same referenced meaning of Sheol translated into the New Testament, that’s easy. Jesus talked more about hell, I believe from memory, then anybody in the New Testament.
Again, let me post the root meaning of Sheol, in which the word is rendered “hell,” or “hades” which has the same scope of meaning- the place of disembodied spirits and sheol “the congregation of the dead,” Again, out of Jesus’ own mouth he talks about such a place, but you fail to believe. You want Greek and Hebrew meaning, here it is, but you fail to believe.
Hell:
derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Pro 30:15,16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen 37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31; 1Sa 2:6, etc.).
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Pro 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num 16:33; Job 24:19; Psa 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Psa 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21,22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num 16:30,33; Eze 31:15,16,17).
(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1Pe 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Mat 16:18; Rev 1:18), and it is downward (Mat 11:23; Luk 10:15).
(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Mat 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Mat 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luk 16:24, etc.).4
So you state the following: “but that simply means you have not thought very deeply about the implications of infinite torture or annihilation with no possibility of it achieving anything correctional. To contemplate an infinite consequence for a short finite life requires a corruption of the concept of justice that is unconscionable.”
And you know what, if I absolutely had zero knowledge of scripture, I may believe the lie. But guess what, that is not true.
Let me explain to you why in a riddle- if a costly gift was given, even though it is free, can be rejected, even though the one (the person whom the gift was given) thought it was accepted. The answer- The one who "accepted" the free gift never really accepted it according to the way the one who gave it said it needed to be accepted.
Let me ask you, what is or was the greatest gift that you have ever received? I am not sure or not if you are a Christian, but let’s say you were, you would then therefore state “the cross of Christ,” correct?
Now this gift was costly! Those who read the Bible know that Christ is infinite. He is the Author of all that has ever been from ancient times. He humbled Himself as a man, was spit on, beat up, but yet did not curse those He created those who did that to Him. For God had given this immense gift to those of the earth.
On the same note, because it is such a costly gift, for one to deny it would be detrimental. Out of Jesus’ own mouth He stated He wish people were hot (loved Him, adored Him, knew Him, followed Him) or cold (denied Him, rejected Him, ignored Him), because essentially they have chosen their own destinations, with Him (heaven) or without Him (hell), but what about one who is lukewarm- their fate is the same as the cold, He is going to spit them out of His mouth (Rev. 3:16). Explain that scripture to me, please. Or explain this to me Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
This gift is both awesome, but fearful! Awesome for those who accepted, and fearful for one to reject it. He did not send an angel or a great saint, He sent Himself, and guess what, those who do reject it will have a fate that is clearly explained in scripture.
As I have stated, let's put our own opinion aside and read into the Bible. I can stand on a major freeway and tell myself "their is no semi heading my way," but guess what when I get hit, it doesn't matter what my own opinion is about it.
Gehenna was a burning trash pit outside the walls of Jerusalem. It is the valley of the sons of Hinnom. It is a real place, on earth! Not some mythical torture pit in the spirit world. And Sheol/Hades is the grave, not some fantasy torture pit ...
The valley of Hinnom.
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