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Legoman, I appreciate your reply, and I also appreciate your non-condescending response too. At least your are bringing me scriptures and some knowledge that you have to the subject. But first and foremost, yes I may have brought many verses to the subject, but no, most of them, and I mean at least 95% of them have not been addressed, and I would appreciate your response to those too.
Ok, so yes I agree with you that Gehenna in the Old Testament was a literal Valley of the sons of Hinnom, and yes it was were the wicked offered their sons to the god of Molech, that I am not disputing.
I will respond according to your last reply, but I need to understand where you stand so I may offer a more thorough reply. You obviously do not believe in hell, do you then believe in annihilation then? Or do you believe that is a so called "cleansing" that one goes through to enter into His kingdom?
So my take on it is this- In the NT Gehenna (hell in the KJV) is seen as a place of unquenchable fire:
1) Matt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell," as you stated
2) Mark 9:43, If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
And you are right it is a form of judgment, a severe judgment where the fire is not quenched.
God has the authority to cast wicked men into this hell, as in the following:
1) Matt. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
2) Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
No one has commented on that scripture, but you can see the fire is not quenched and He can "destroy both soul and body in hell."
Only the wicked will be thrown into the blazing furnace, the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
1) Matthew 13:47-50 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. (It is explained in the following): This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
As you can see, it is literal in both ways- Old Testament of the Valley of Hinnom, a place of wickedness, in which Jesus explains, not as a symbol, but again a literal place where the wicked will be thrown into a fiery, blazing furnace when the angels seperate the good fish (believers) and the bad fish (unbelievers).
A similar parable is also explained in the following (Matthew 25:31-46):
1) When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
He then, therefore, separate the righteous and wicked, in which the wicked have the same fate as the devil and his angels; they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. No symbolism here friend, none whatsoever.
You posted the below scripture-
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].
Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?......your response
Your above response makes sense to me when you correspond the verses as I stated. In no way shape or form is it symbolized as you claim. The reason it makes sense is that one is judging God's creation (man) with bitterness and unforgiveness, and when one has that, one can not be forgiven and they are "in danger" of hellfire, not that they would receive if repented of.
Your next response- [NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.
This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".....your finished response.
Yes, I agree, I never quoted that verse to state that had any reference to hell, whatsoever. ANd I agree, one should reconcile to one's brother before we come to God. This however has nothing to do with gehenna or eternal hell, it just is talking about forgiveness.
Now my take is the following of hell and what scripture states in the bold, italicized and underline verses-
1) where the fire never goes out
2) destroy both soul and body in hell
3) One who has authority to throw you into hell
4) Devil and demons have the same fate as unrighteous, thrown into fiery, blazing furnace.
5) All nations separated, one are sheep (righteous) one are goats (unrighteous). The unrighteous are condemned by Christ stating to depart from Him, and again, have the same fate as the devil and his angels. The righteous will have eternal life, and unrighteous to eternal punishment.
This is were I conclude, ok. Now, Jesus states the following: Matt. 7: 21-24, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Which means one can call upon His name and claimed they knew Him, but in all actuality they did not, in which He says I never knew you, no symbolism here.
Here is another- Rev. 3:15-18 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
The cold and lukewarm have the same fate, they are about to be spit out of His mouth, no symbolism whatsoever.
Also, in John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are bornagain. ”
As you can see, that not everyone who claims they know Him will enter His kingdom, but only those who are born again, who know Him and are hot for Him and are righteous in His eyes will enter His kingdom. In no way shape or form is it (Hell) being symbolized, whatsoever. It is a judgment, but is an blazing,eternal, fiery, judgment that has the same fate as the devil and his angels. Again, the relation to the Valley of Hinnom is that it was wicked, detestable, in which Jesus clarifies that the relation of that is for the wicked, not symbolism.
1) not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter His kingdom, but only those who are born again and truly know Him, not of Him.
2) cold and lukewarm will be spit out of His mouth
3) one must be born from above, by the Holy Spirit to enter His kingdom.
No symbolism in the above verses.
Finishing thoughts with a question:
Would you agree or disagree that Judas Iscariot was a disciple that was by Jesus' side? In essence, a person relationally close to Jesus deserves to be with Jesus now then right?
When Jesus is betrayed by Jesus and states the following: Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
Why is that, because he will be welcomed into His graces in heaven? Why would it have been better if he had not been born? Or, where is the symbolism of that? You would think that someone who walked, talked, and knew Jesus would be salted with a little fire and welcomed in; again, why would it have been better if he had not been born, as Jesus stated?
Is it possible that Judas may have been the one who stated "Lord, Lord" not be entered into His kingdom, in which it would have been better if he had not been born?
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
You can clearly see, their is no symbolism or analogy involved this this paragraph of scripture. We know that God the Father is on the Throne and Jesus' is at His side on a throne. We know what earth and heavens represent, and the magnitude of God, that's why they fled from His presence. We know what it means for the dead, the unrighteous great and small standing in front of His throne. We know the book talks about the Book of life and some's names are not written in it, or their names are blotted out because their rejection of Him. Death and Hades, and stated in the Bible is the temporary place of the unrighteous, in which that (Hades) will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Those whose names weren't in the Lambs book of Life will be thrown their.
If you claim there is symbolism or this is an analogy, tell me what it means. Or, for argument sake, let's say it was, sounds pretty serious to me. Doesn't sound like one will be salted and accepted into His kingdom.
The Lamb of God (Jesus), as most who read the Bible know that He has what is called the book of Life. Those who know Christ and walks with Him, will their names be in the book. One's name could be in the book, but by rejecting Him, His gift of salvation or rejecting Him by his or her lifestyle, could have it blotted out. Here are some scriptural references to the Lamb's book of Life:
1) Exodus 32:32
But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
2) Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blotout of my book.
3) Deuteronomy 9:14
Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blotout their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they.”
4) Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blotout the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
5) Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
6) Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So in this last scripture, Rev. 3:5, if he talks about not blotting one's name, then it is possible to have it blotted out. "But the one who is victiorous, will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out..."
Final thoughts in Mark 8:34-38 The Way of the Cross
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life[b] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
As you see, one can so called "gain the whole world" and yet forfeit his soul, otherwise, why the suggestion?
A book of preponderances, but many use unjust scales. Absolutely, no one can reconcile love with eternal torment for love is not self-incriminating.
The Spirit is passionately sorrowful or troubled; not wrathful. If the only new thing we have to offer is an improved version of the past, then today
is just a reflection of yesterday with no hope for tomorrow.
A book of preponderances, but many use unjust scales. Absolutely, no one can reconcile love with eternal torment for love is not self-incriminating.
The Spirit is passionately sorrowful or troubled; not wrathful. If the only new thing we have to offer is an improved version of the past, then today
is just a reflection of yesterday with no hope for tomorrow.
Well said, Jerwade . . . the tragedy of this eschatology is that it has nothing to do with our ultimate fate. There is no requirement to believe any of the mainstream religious dogma . . . only in Christ and His commandments to "love God and each other." All else is vanity.
That all is fair and fine, and sounds great, however, you might as well throw out most of the books of the Bible, for that is not scriptural.
With the false hope that you give, is not of the Word of God. The thinking pattern that you have is clearly is even seen in the following-
Romans 3:5-8 (NIV)
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
Here is the (NLT)
"But," some say, "our sins serve a good purpose, for people will see God's goodness when he declares us sinners to be innocent. Isn't it unfair, then, for God to punish us?" (That is actually the way some people talk.) Of course not! If God is not just, how is he qualified to judge the world? "But," some might still argue, "how can God judge and condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?" If you follow that kind of thinking, however, you might as well say that the more we sin the better it is! Those who say such things deserve to be condemned, yet some slander me by saying this is what I preach!
What you're doing is giving people a license to sin. Now read the last sentence! It is funny to me what we should take literal in the Word of Truth, Word of God, you do not; but when you should not take something literal, to fit your own purposes, you do. Funny how that works.
And yes, friend, all of one's fate is dependent on the Lamb's book of life, are our names in it or not. If one does not know, that it is essential to take the Bible in context, and not one or two verses to fit our purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Well said, Jerwade . . . the tragedy of this eschatology is that it has nothing to do with our ultimate fate. There is no requirement to believe any of the mainstream religious dogma . . . only in Christ and His commandments to "love God and each other." All else is vanity.
What you're doing is giving people a license to sin. Now read the last sentence! It is funny to me what we should take literal in the Word of Truth, Word of God, you do not; but when you should not take something literal, to fit your own purposes, you do. Funny how that works.
Under what delusional viewpoint do you believe we do NOT have a license to sin? That is the whole point of life . . . voluntarily choosing NOT to sin using our self-control. If we did not have license to sin there would be nothing to choose. The goal of spiritual maturity is to stop focusing on the "training wheels" given to our spiritually immature ancestors to aid them in developing the purpose of self-control . . . and respond to the spirit behind the letter of the law. That is what Jesus' clarification of the commandments was supposed to bring about. Instead our religious leaders retained the primitive ignorance and adherence to the "training wheels" and the letter of the law . . . ignoring the spirit so unambiguously displayed and taught by Jesus . . ."love God and each other," period.
Quote:
And yes, friend, all of one's fate is dependent on the Lamb's book of life, are our names in it or not. If one does not know, that it is essential to take the Bible in context, and not one or two verses to fit our purposes.
This is why it is fruitless to discuss these things with those who are so indoctrinated into the superstitious and primitive mindset of our ancestors. I generally avoid doing so with the likes of C34, YSM . . . and now you. We do not even exist on the same intellectual wavelength. Fortunately, it will make little difference in the end. Peace.
Whoa, whoa, no need to down play my intellect. I am just giving you scriptures, in context, by the way.
License to sin, huh? And you think we have a license to sin? I did not say that one wouldn't sin. Only Jesus Christ is the one who committed no sin. What I am saying is if one is born from above, born by the Holy Spirit, one does not want to sin, (1 John 2:1) My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But IF anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
Notice how I put in bold, if,? There is no license to sin, thinking "I'll just go do this or that, and live merry, for Christ will forgive me." No, there is no license to do what we want. For once I was in bondage to sin, and was enslaved to it, now I am free and the chains are off, and I can live in righteousness. Did I ever comment that if I or anyone else for that matter wouldn't sin? But IF I sin and with conviction of the Holy Spirit, I repent of it. There is no license there.
The thought process you give a person is that we can do and live how we want, for there is no repercussions. Yes, love God, love eachother that is at the utmost while being Spirit led, I am not doubting that. But your giving people a false hope, and a different, unscriptural version of God, my Father.
If what your telling me about God is true, then you might as well take out any scriptures about the book of Life and one's name being blotted out, story of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah, the battle with Nebuchadnezzar and the Israelites, God's anger and wrath in the Old Testament, scriptures of Hell, Abyss, Devil and his demons having the same fate as the unrighteous, remove the book of Revelation, Paul's experience into 3rd heaven, most parables of Jesus etc..., you're not giving a correct representation of God. Though God's covenant has changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament, He still hates the same things, for scripture even states- Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
That means He is the same God thousands of years ago, and He is today. His character has not changed. And I don't even know what your talking about regarding C34 or YSM.
Good day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Under what delusional viewpoint do you believe we do NOT have a license to sin? That is the whole point of life . . . voluntarily choosing NOT to sin using our self-control. If we did not have license to sin there would be nothing to choose. The goal of spiritual maturity is to stop focusing on the "training wheels" given to our spiritually immature ancestors to aid them in developing the purpose of self-control . . . and respond to the spirit behind the letter of the law. That is what Jesus' clarification of the commandments was supposed to bring about. Instead our religious leaders retained the primitive ignorance and adherence to the "training wheels" and the letter of the law . . . ignoring the spirit so unambiguously displayed and taught by Jesus . . ."love God and each other," period. This is why it is fruitless to discuss these things with those who are so indoctrinated into the superstitious and primitive mindset of our ancestors. I generally avoid doing so with the likes of C34, YSM . . . and now you. We do not even exist on the same intellectual wavelength. Fortunately, it will make little difference in the end. Peace.
I read a lot of post that talk of the "unquenchable fire" in Gehenna. Answer me this when does an unquenchable fire go out? When it is out of fuel. Unquenchable means that it can not be put out but it will go out when the fuel runs out. This as many things in the Bible is a metaphor meaning that all the carnality will be burned out of us till nothing of it is left leaving us purified as God intends. Nothing can put out this "fire" till its job is done. It has nothing to do with burning in real flames forever.
Matthew 25:41Thenhe will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (NIV).
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (KJV)
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (NKJV)
"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, `Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons! (NLT)
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (ESV)
This is the outline of the Bible usage: 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (NIV)
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. (ESV)
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched (NKJV).
Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire……….not a lake of water, but fire…hmmm??
Dictionary meaning: un·quench·a·ble adj. 1. Impossible to slake or satisfy: unquenchable thirst. 2. Impossible to suppress or destroy: unquenchable enthusiasm.
I read a lot of post that talk of the "unquenchable fire" in Gehenna. Answer me this when does an unquenchable fire go out? When it is out of fuel. Unquenchable means that it can not be put out but it will go out when the fuel runs out. This as many things in the Bible is a metaphor meaning that all the carnality will be burned out of us till nothing of it is left leaving us purified as God intends. Nothing can put out this "fire" till its job is done. It has nothing to do with burning in real flames forever.
An unquenchable fire that is never satisfied?
Yet, it never consumes anything?
"Love your unquenchable enthusiasm, it's never ending."
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