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SSchulz, you have some form of truth to what your saying, however, what you are saying has to many contradictions, so bear with me while I point out the following from biblestudymanuals.net
[Compare Ezek 37:26]:
"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them...
and I will give blessings to them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore"
[Heb] olam = [Grk] aionios [Septuagint]
God's covenant was unilateral - so it would not be broken - therefore it was for all time: "forevermore." None of His unilateral covenants were for a season or an age. All of His unilateral covenants were for an eternity and God does not renege on His promises.
So that’s the first part—you can see the Hebrew word- Olam and Greek word, ainios.
Therefore the Hebrew word "olam" in the Hebrew bible and the Greek word "aionios" in the Septuagint are indeed translated "forevermore" correctly.
[2 Cor 4:18]:
"Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen[temporal - temporary] but to things that are unseen [spiritual - eternal]; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting .................................................. ............[Grk] "aionios"
Here in this passage the contrast is between the temporal and the eternal - the material and the spiritual. The Greek word "aionios" could not be translated to mean "age" in this passage because that still portrays a temporary duration for spiritual things which are eternal. This meaning makes no sense in the context which Paul is establishing which is a permanence of spiritual things over the temporary nature of the material world.
Therefore the Greek word "aionios" must mean eternal or everlasting.
If the adjective "aioniou" is restricted to refer to a time period called an "age," as some maintain, and if "aioniou" modifies "Theou" rendered "God,' as it does in Romans 16:26, then the time period of God, i.e., His duration of existence is an age. He is therefore not an everlasting God, but an 'age lasting' God.
[2 Thes 1:9]:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power"
The Greek words "olEthron aiOnion" are rendered "everlasting destruction." But "aiOnion" is falsely claimed to be for an eon, or an age. Destruction not eternal but limited to an age is claimed to be in view.
Do you see the contradictions to what your saying. God is everlasting, His time is not a “time period” as you suppose. There is no age limit to Him, for he is the Alpha and the Omega, and everlasting God.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The above verse again, is for ever and ever, not a time or period of time. Way to many contradictions.
This should hit it home in Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Why would someone be cursed, and why would it be an eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Also, if you believe that eternal punishment is for a time, then the righteous would have eternal life for a time....doesn't make sense. God is eternal, and the righteous will have eternal life, and unrighteous eternally condemned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz
Hi tdinh: The reason I say the fire is not eternal is that the original greek text has the word "aions" which means an age- an undertermined period of time. So it cam not mean forever. Ex:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)
If forever is forever why is the "and ever" needed? And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up unto ages of ages; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)
This makes sense as it is a period of time known only to God.
As for what happens to Satin and his angels- they too shall be reconsiled to God just as it says in Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The Bible is a metaphor, or parable, because as Jesus said all the parable are the same, if you understand one you understand them all. They just come at it from differant angles and perspectives but they all are the same.
Genesis 1:27 should read that God is creating man in his image no has created man in his image. We are not like God yet but the creation process is still going on and in the end we will be the very image of out Father.
All pareable tell that " God is creating man in his Image."
[Compare Ezek 37:26]:
"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them...
and I will give blessings to them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore"
If you read the literal translation it reads
26And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age. Your right about the word olam and aion but they mean an age not forever- check it out with a literal translation.
[2 Cor 4:18]:
"Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen[temporal - temporary] but to things that are unseen [spiritual - eternal]; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting ...... ............[Grk] "aionios"
Above is your version of the verse.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Above is KJV of the verse now look at a literal translation.
18we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during.
Above is the literal translation,again age during not eternal.
[2 Thes 1:9]:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power"
Above version you quoted and:
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Above the literal translation.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Above the version you quoted.
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Above the literal translation.
This should hit it home in Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Above is your version
And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34`Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37`Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40`And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44`Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45`Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Above it literal translation.Again it is age during.
Remember that the Kingdom of God that Jesus rules over is not eternal. He will rule with his elect " predestined before the creation" and then according to 1 Corinthians 15:25 --for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
So Jesus will rule with his elect and at the end all other will have been judged, chastised, made true repentance and been cleansed of all sin and will be the very image of God and then he will turn the completed creation over to God the Father. God's rule will never end.
[Compare Ezek 37:26]:
"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them...
and I will give blessings to them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore"
If you read the literal translation it reads
26And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age. Your right about the word olam and aion but they mean an age not forever- check it out with a literal translation.
[2 Cor 4:18]:
"Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen[temporal - temporary] but to things that are unseen [spiritual - eternal]; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting ...... ............[Grk] "aionios"
Above is your version of the verse.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Above is KJV of the verse now look at a literal translation.
18we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during.
Above is the literal translation,again age during not eternal.
[2 Thes 1:9]:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power"
Above version you quoted and:
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Above the literal translation.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Above the version you quoted.
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Above the literal translation.
This should hit it home in Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Above is your version
And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34`Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37`Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40`And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44`Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45`Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Above it literal translation.Again it is age during.
Remember that the Kingdom of God that Jesus rules over is not eternal. He will rule with his elect " predestined before the creation" and then according to 1 Corinthians 15:25 --for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
So Jesus will rule with his elect and at the end all other will have been judged, chastised, made true repentance and been cleansed of all sin and will be the very image of God and then he will turn the completed creation over to God the Father. God's rule will never end.
I think it is important to note what "age-during" means in the context of the scriptures ...
The covenant God made with Israel was "age-during" or "of the age" or "to the age" ... What this means is that the covenant of God will be fulfilled by Christ in the age of his earthly reign.
Its the same in 2 Cor 4:18, the things of this world that are seen are only temporary, but the spiritual things which are not seen are of the age(the kingdom age, the age of ages). This means the things we see now in the world will not last forever(the rule of corruption, sin and death), because when Christ sets up his kingdom the spiritual things that are now invisible will be made manifest in the world, and Gods will shall be done on earth even as it is now in heaven when all things shall be made subject to Christ so that God can be all and in all.
However, "aionios" does not always mean "of the age" in the sense of referring specifically to the kingdom age of Christ, though it often does, at other times it may be a reference to something that is pertaining to another age, or to multiple ages.
Again, I requested you give me the Greek meaning of Lake, however, there is no such thing. Lake in Hebrew and Greek are a lake in English, if you can show me otherwise, then do so.
The Greek word limén for lake can be found in Strong’s, number 3040. Although I am not a huge fan, it renders the word as meaning a pond, small or large, through the notion of nearness of
shore as in a harbor or haven; a place of safety. However, you may be tossed to and fro in the winds of change, but there’s nothing like "smoke on the water" within a steaming hot bath.
"Hell is the lake of fire which men have made, and it's not a haven"
The Greek word limén for lake can be found in Strong’s, number 3040. Although I am not a huge fan, it renders the word as meaning a pond, small or large, through the notion of nearness of
shore as in a harbor or haven; a place of safety. However, you may be tossed to and fro in the winds of change, but there’s nothing like "smoke on the water" within a steaming hot bath.
"Hell is the lake of fire which men have made, and it's not a haven"
"Death and the thoughts of an underworld will be cleansed from the minds of men."
Do you realize before his book came out he had a CD that is almost just as indepth as his book, and anyone can burn it for free without any repercussions, and yes, if you don't like to read, then you may still listen to them and burn them....((FOR ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!)
I guess you are unfamiliar with marketing plans to build percieved value.
Quote:
Imagination, read my reply for the Greek, Hebrew, and English meaning, sounds pretty much what he experienced.
Yes imagination, he did not experience the pain and suffering he is trying to warn others of, anyone could make up such a story and many could do a much better job of it, they make movies with such imagination.
If your going to be a Bill wiese advocate then at least do him the courtesy of not making thing out to be more than even Bill himself has done. Some emotional feeling Bill conveys has nothing to do with experiencing a demon ripping out your guts.
Quote:
So you base that once one goes to hell, or heaven too, right? Because your commenting on the chasm that one can not cross, correct? Ok, then Paul's experience to heaven would be false, John the revelator's experience to the throne of God would be false, because if one can't go to hell and come back, then that means one cannot go to heaven and back. You might as well throw out most of the New Testament letters my friend, because wouldn't that be lying (sarcastic)?
The argument here is not mine it is yours, we are talking about Hell and the idea that once you go to hell that is it for eternity. You are trying to sidestep Bills biggest contradiction to what he teaches and what youi wish to teach. Bill returned from Hell telling the world that it is possible to go to hell and get out. Bill doesn't actually say that, but if true, that is what he story does say. Bill went to hell and there was hope that he did not have to remain there forever, that is wonderful news.
Bill got out and all your points cannot change that.
Quote:
But guess what, many have had Near Death Experiences in hell and
We are not talking about an near death experience, you are comparing apples to oranges now, BILL has claimed that he actually and physically went to hell and he came back, a near death experience has nothing to do with Bills story and claim.
Bill came back proving that if his story is true and not a bunch of concocted nonsense or a bad Drug trip that you can go to hell and return.
Sschulz, I believe what your doing is dangerous, for you have some knowledge of scripture, but you are twisting it.
Again, you have not addressed the following: Therefore the Greek word "aionios" must mean eternal or everlasting.
If the adjective "aioniou" is restricted to refer to a time period called an "age," as some maintain, and if "aioniou" modifies "Theou" rendered "God,' as it does in Romans 16:26, then the time period of God, i.e., His duration of existence is an age. He is therefore not an everlasting God, but an 'age lasting' God.
You know just as well as I do that God is the Creator, not age lasting, for He has always existed. When you pervert this particular word, you have many, many contradictions which I will point out. Also, you fail to address the word “lake” in which you claim is a Being other than a place. Please show me what you are talking about in all of scripture that points to the lake of fire being of Him.
So let’s take a look at the Old Testament and I would like for you to address the following-
1) This was when Aaron help lead people to a false idol, the calf in His image in Exodus 32:27-35
Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.
You see Moses tried to make atonement, however, God says it was such a grave sin, that those who sinned against Him were blotted out of His book- The Book of Life.
2) In Revelation where those who are “victorious” will never be blot out, which means one could be blotted out, otherwise, why the suggestion?
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blotout the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
That was my first point, one’s name absolutely can be blotted out of the Book of Life because of sin, for in no way shape or form does it state, blotted out, put back in after you go through the lake of Fire, which is death/God. That is not how it is translated as you presume.
Secondly, one must be born again.
1) John 3:3-8
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are bornagain… Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
One can not, and will not enter His Kingdom, unless He is born from above, by His Spirit. If one does not accept Him during this life, there are no other chances, Hebrews 9:27 states,“Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to facejudgment.” Also in 1 Corinthians 15:50 “I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” If one is not born again, they are just flesh and blood living without His Spirit, in which they can not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Here is reference to the Devil, which you claim will be justified in the end times, for we know the Devil and unrighteous will have the same fate as described in the Sheep and Goats Parable. Rev. 5:7-9 “Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”
Here Satan, who lead the world astray in Rev. 20:10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Notice how those whose names who weren’t written in the book of life has the same fate as the Devil, which will be thrown into the lake of fire- the second death. Let me reiterate, no where in the Bible, as you suggest, is God referred to as the lake of fire, this scriptures tells of those whose name who weren’t written in His book will be thrown there, not to be refined, for no references in the Word of God suggest that.
Here is another scripture which states of those who will never enter the kingdom of heaven, 1 Corinth. 9-11, “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
It is suggested that we all have been like that; however, when one is born by His Spirit, we no longer live as the world does.
This is my conclusion to hit my points with a final scripture:
1) God is not described as ‘age lasting,’ as you suggest, but is the Creator
2) One’s name can be blotted out of His book, which is the book of life, nowhere does it state in the Bible that He will blot out one’s name and refine them in the Lake of Fire, which is death/God, as you state.
3) One must be born from above, for if one does not accept Him during this life, one to die then face judgment, not die, be refined in the lake of fire/God and He will accept Him.
4) 1 Corinithians 9, clearly shows of those who will not inherit His kingdom, essentially, those who do not accept Him and walk in the worldy ways, and as the Bible states, that’s what some of us were, but no longer.
Finally, the scripture to the church of Laodicia in Revelation 3:14-18,
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
Where does it state He will spit them out and give them another chance, as you suppose. No, their fate is the same is the cold.
Let’s say for arugment sake what your saying is true, ok. Then all of the warnings in the Old Testament showing God’s wrath and anger against sin is futile. Jesus and the disciples warnings on God’s judgment and one’s eternal destiny without Him would be futile. But most importantly, Jesus dyeing on the cross would be worthless because He would have died in vain. For if you state everyone will be cleansed, then what’s the point of the cross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz
Hey tdinh: We disagree again.
[Compare Ezek 37:26]:
"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them...
and I will give blessings to them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore"
If you read the literal translation it reads
26And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age. Your right about the word olam and aion but they mean an age not forever- check it out with a literal translation.
[2 Cor 4:18]:
"Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen[temporal - temporary] but to things that are unseen [spiritual - eternal]; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting ...... ............[Grk] "aionios"
Above is your version of the verse.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Above is KJV of the verse now look at a literal translation.
18we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during.
Above is the literal translation,again age during not eternal.
[2 Thes 1:9]:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power"
Above version you quoted and:
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Above the literal translation.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Above the version you quoted.
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Above the literal translation.
This should hit it home in Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Above is your version
And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34`Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37`Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40`And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44`Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45`Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Above it literal translation.Again it is age during.
Remember that the Kingdom of God that Jesus rules over is not eternal. He will rule with his elect " predestined before the creation" and then according to 1 Corinthians 15:25 --for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
So Jesus will rule with his elect and at the end all other will have been judged, chastised, made true repentance and been cleansed of all sin and will be the very image of God and then he will turn the completed creation over to God the Father. God's rule will never end.
Oh, and another thing, no one has answered my question about Judas Iscariot or Jesus' comment about not everyone who calls on His name will enter His kingdom. For if what you are saying is true, then both of these verses should be taken out of the Bible, or they would contradict scripture, either or.
1) In the gospels, we know that Judas Iscariot was Jesus' friend, who walked, talked, slept beside, and were probably good friends, true or not? If you state that all, the entire world would be reconciled, why would Jesus state it would have been better if he (Judas) had not been born? Why would Jesus suggest that, knowing that Judas would be refined through, as you suggest, the lake of fire? That statement would totally contradict the fate of Judas, his eternal fate. Read the following:
Matthew 26:24-25
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had notbeenborn.”
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “You have said so.”
2) Here is another reference that one could call on His name, but not know Him and enter His kingdom:
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Could it also be possible that Judas could have been the one who called Him, Lord, but would never enter His kingdom. So therefore, if Judas, who at one time was a close friend of Jesus who betrayed Him, if He wouldn't enter, is it possible that others who claim they know Him, could make that same statement?
Is it even possible that Judas' name would have been blotted out because of this grave sin; I mean blotted out of the Lamb's Book of LIfe?
Where in scripture does Jesus say that “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven [and then one will go through the lake of fire, which is me, and will be refined and accepted]...my quotes here. No where, it is not even suggested.
Oh, and another thing, no one has answered my question about Judas Iscariot or Jesus' comment about not everyone who calls on His name will enter His kingdom. For if what you are saying is true, then both of these verses should be taken out of the Bible, or they would contradict scripture, either or.
1) In the gospels, we know that Judas Iscariot was Jesus' friend, who walked, talked, slept beside, and were probably good friends, true or not? If you state that all, the entire world would be reconciled, why would Jesus state it would have been better if he (Judas) had not been born? Why would Jesus suggest that, knowing that Judas would be refined through, as you suggest, the lake of fire? That statement would totally contradict the fate of Judas, his eternal fate. Read the following:
Matthew 26:24-25
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had notbeenborn.”
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “You have said so.”
2) Here is another reference that one could call on His name, but not know Him and enter His kingdom:
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Could it also be possible that Judas could have been the one who called Him, Lord, but would never enter His kingdom. So therefore, if Judas, who at one time was a close friend of Jesus who betrayed Him, if He wouldn't enter, is it possible that others who claim they know Him, could make that same statement?
Is it even possible that Judas' name would have been blotted out because of this grave sin; I mean blotted out of the Lamb's Book of LIfe?
Where in scripture does Jesus say that “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven [and then one will go through the lake of fire, which is me, and will be refined and accepted]...my quotes here. No where, it is not even suggested.
You are going to all lengths to obscure the fact that your attempting to associate the word eternal with the supposed experience of a man that was temporary. No one needs to answer your question because you still have a contradiction in your lap that you are pretending is not there.
Bill got out of hell, so if your trying to associate Bill getting out of hell to base a teaching that you can never get out of hell then it is you that has an interpretation problem.
With all due respect, I have answered your issues or questions in the past, that is why I did not reply. But to answer you any further, if you start on page 15 of this thread to this current page, it will answer your question(s) I have already answered.
Good day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
You are going to all lengths to obscure the fact that your attempting to associate the word eternal with the supposed experience of a man that was temporary. No one needs to answer your question because you still have a contradiction in your lap that you are pretending is not there.
Bill got out of hell, so if your trying to associate Bill getting out of hell to base a teaching that you can never get out of hell then it is you that has an interpretation problem.
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