Bill Wiese (woman, blessings, resurrection, science)

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Sodom and Gomorrah, obvious isn't it.

As far as witchcraft, you asked, and you shall now receive via bible.com-
Witchcraft involves the manipulation of the demonic host, through incantations and the casting of spells. Witchcraft can also involve communication with demonic spirits impersonating the dead. The Bible clearly teaches that the dead cannot communicate with the living as there is a great chasm separating the dead from the living (Luke 16:26). As discarnate spirit entities these demons possess knowledge regarding the activities of humans and have a limited to ability to foretell the future.

The Old and New Testaments treat witchcraft as an evil, rebellious, and loathsome practice. Those who practiced it were not tolerated. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

With respect to the evil kind Manasseh who reigned in Jerusalem fifty five years the Bible states: “He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, followed the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites” (2 Chronicles 33:2). “He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger” (2 Chronicles 33:6).

When Samuel reproved King Saul, he compared rebellion to the sin of divination and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Witchcraft includes both divination and idolatry. “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23). If Saul was rejected by God for rebellion and arrogance so will a modern day person who practices or permits himself or herself to be entertained by witchcraft and idolatry.

The Living Bible clearly addresses the fate of those who delve or as C. S. Lewis labeled “lust” for the occult: “The Lord has rejected you because you welcome foreigners from the East who practice magic and communicate with evil spirits” (Isaiah 2:6). “Crawl into the caves in the rocks and hide in terror from his glorious majesty, for the day is coming when your proud looks will be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted. On that day the Lord of Hosts will move against the proud and haughty and bring them to dust… All the glory of mankind will bow low; the pride of men will like in the dust, and the Lord alone will be exalted. And all idols will be utterly abolished and destroyed” (Isaiah 2:10-18).

Paul in Galatians 5:19-21 ascribes witchcraft as a deed of the flesh. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” It is interesting to note that Paul’s warning is to the churches of Galatia whose members are already Christians. They are warned that by engaging in sinful conduct they would not inherit the kingdom of God. The warning is to those who have accepted Christ.

Take a lesson from the sorcerers and witches who came to a saving knowledge of Christ in Acts 19:19, “And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.” All occult objects should be destroyed as these items are vehicles or “windows” for occult activity and oppression. They are literally magnets, which draw the demonic host.

Hope that answers your questions. Anyhow, why do you ask? As Galatians teaches, those who practice witchcraft, also will not inherit God's kingdom.

Haven't talk to you in a bit on here, how would you like to answer reply #368?

I'd like a biblical answer for the Sodom and Gomorrah question. There are a couple of verses I'm interested in. Also, concerning witchcraft. Do you know much about it? As in what the people of the Old Testament believed about it? And, how much of the "dark arts" does God control?

[legoman]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Legoman, I still do not fully comphrend your doctorine. Let me ask you this, ok-

1) you state: In that sense I fully believe not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heaven - not everyone will reign with Christ.

Then where will those reign then if not everyone will reign with Christ? If not Heaven then where?

They will not reign anywhere - they are subjects who have been cast outside into darkness as per Mat 8:12. It does not mean that God will not ultimately save them all - for that is God's desire.

2) I stated:
Also When Jesus says Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".........he is actually lyeing because everyone will come to repentance not this age, but the age to come, right?

And you commented: Nope, not what I said at all.
Tell me then, what does Jesus mean? Tell me in depth so I understand your doctorine.

He means exactly what He says. Only those who do the will of the Father will enter His reign. Young's Literal translates it like this:
Matt 7:21`Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is referring to Christ's reign here.

3) I stated:
Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." ....is actually not true and will be forgiven and eternal only means the next age, but eternal doesnt mean everlasting, right?

You commented:
The word is aionios, the proper translation is eonian - meaning pertaining or relating to age/ages. It could also mean continuing through ages.

Could it also mean through the ages that never stop, but keep going? If you claim eventually in one of the ages they will be forgiven, then what? Where will they be?

I stated:
Quote:

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."... is not true because you can't blaspheme the HOly Spirit and if you do, you will not be forgiven in this age but the next age, right?
You commented: Nope didn't say that either.
What are you saying then if not the next age, an eventual age that God determines?

Matt 12:32 clarifies this and says blasphemy of the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. But there are more ages than just these 2. Beyond them it could be forgiven.

I state:
Quote:
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." .....again, I am confused, so if it's not this age or the age to come, is it the age to come after that, 3rd age? I am confused.
Your comment: There are multiple ages to come in the future (Eph 2:7 shows that, for example).
So when Ephesians states 2:7 “in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.”
Your claiming that not the next age where this age is destroyed, but an eventual age, right?

Yes in a future age. There are many ages to come. Blasphemy is not forgiven in 2 of them.

I stated::
John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Which mean that when GOd makes you bow down, not this age but the age to come, even though one loves evil and not good, He will mysteriously give them His Holy Spirit, right? Or, you really don't need to become born again, because yours sins are forgiven and He will overlook one who is unrepentant. Let's pretend He didn't say this, or wait, it's a symbol, so let's throw it out like the book of Revelation.
You state the following:
Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

God will pour out His spirit on all people (Joel 2:28).

I never said I throw out the book of Revelations. I said it is filled with symbols, which you agreed with. So just as the lamb is Jesus, and the bride is His church, so the lake of fire and the beast are symbols of something. Fire is symbolically used throughout the bible as a refiner and purging agent - the scriptures and even God Himself is represented symbolically as fire.


Yes, I know God’s kindness leads one to repentance, ONLY IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO REPENT!
Yes, God will pour out His spirit on all people, ONLY IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO REPENT AND TURN TO HIM!

You put man's will above God's actions. You fail to understand how God can influence people. God will pour His spirit out on all people, and all people will confess His name - and the only way people can confess His name if they have His spirit.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore it will be done. All will be willing to turn and repent to Him because they will all have God's spirit.

Again, if the Bible tells us Jesus is the Lamb and groom, people who know Christ are His bride, then it is easy to see that the Dragon is the Anti-Christ, Satan. The beast and false prophet on the dragons head, which are two horns are governments that are of the devil are his cohorts. Would you like me to show you how and where it is explained? You don’t throw out the baby
I also state:
Oh, and the book of life. It's actually just a pamphlet in the greek and hebrew translation, it means pamplet and blot means put back in the pamplet, or is the book of life a symbol and we can't understand it...hmmm, help please.

You comment: I didn't say any of this. Pamphlet? What are you talking about? But if you want to understand, consider that Saul of Tarsus is not in the book of life, but Paul is.
Again, God changed Saul’s name to Paul and was once dead, like me, and is alive now and in the Book of Life. What is your point? I am talking about the Book of life and what you thought it was, and what blot means.


You state: I never said it was "cute" or "not so bad". Do you think God's judgments are "easy" if they don't involve eternal torment? I don't.
Then tell me, in the next coming ages, where will the lost, unbelievers, damned, condemned, unrighteous, wicked be in the next age or age to come, what is happening during God’s chastisement, and what will happen after, where will they be?

I don't claim to know any specifics on God's judgments. Its represented symbolically by God's refining fire. They will be corrective and they will teach people righteousness - because that is what judgment is for. Its not for torturing people eternally.

I state:
Help me understand, the Bible doesn't make any sense from what your telling me.

Your comment:
Do you really want to understand or are you just trying to prove yourself right and 'win the debate'? Are you teachable or are your unteachable?

I am willing to be taught, but not of a false doctrine. My question was absolutely sarcastic because of your twisted scriptural references.

If you are willing to be taught, then listen to what people are saying. Ignoring people's responses and distracting the topic with sarcasm doesn't help.

So let me ask you this, are you saying that a God that allows one to choose wickedness over good, to turn from righteousness to wickedness, to be filled with His Spirit and turn to hate and anger, to reject His work on the cross; would be unjust, unholy, unforgiving, a tyrant, wicked and hateful if one’s eternal, meaning ages that never cease to be in the Lake of Fire-the second death, meaning a place of torment, would be evil?

I don't understand your question. But I think you are asking if it is unjust to let someone be tortured infinitely. And the answer is yes.

Please, would like all to answer the above.

You state the following:

What doesn't make sense is that you present all these verses that you think means God will let people suffer forever in eternal torment. Yet you have no explanation for all the verses that show God will save all men. I have presented the explanations for your so-called "eternal torment" verses.

You have yet to explain these verses that say:

God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
My answer: No, your taking it out of context as I already explained, He desires and wants, not forces and pushes or prods for one to be saved.

So then you are saying God cannot achieve His own desires. I suggest you look at Isaiah 46:10 and Job 23:13 for starters. I also suggest you meditate on what that means if God cannot achieve what He wants.

God is reconciling all things to Himself through Christ (Col 1:20)
My answer: again, reconciling those who know Him to reconcile Himself to Him. Let’s take col. 1:20 to the next verse to take it “into context.” Col. 1:21-23

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

You are the one twisting scripture here. Verse 20 does not say He reconciles only believers. He is reconciling ALL so that He will ultimately be ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15).

Those who know Christ now, were once alienated and enemies, but yes, God reconciled them to Himself from earth to heaven.

Everyone will swear allegiance to God (Isa 45:23)


My anwer: yeah, and your point, He is God. The good will voluntarily bow a knee, God will make those wicked bow to Him. Both destiny’s are forever.

I think you underestimate what the words "swear allegiance" mean. One cannot swear allegiance to God unless they are actually truly and heartfully loyal to Him. And God has no need for false loyalty.

You get my point. Again, if you take them in proper context and not take out a verse and cut it off from the rest, you say what is truth, could be a lie. Take it in proper context with verses before and after it, chapters before and after it, or books before and after it if you want your doctorine to hold water. If you want me to, I can, no problem. But my doctorine is of truth, your’s holds no water.

Your belief is faulty here because you do not acknowledge God's sovereignty and power in all things.

God knows all things (numerous verses).
God has declared everything that will happen (Isa 46:10-11).
God can achieve anything He desires (Isa 46:10, Isa 55:11, Job 23:13).
God is working all things for His purpose (Eph 1:11).
God directs man's steps (Prov 19:20, Prov 20:24, Prov 21:1, Jer 10:23).
Man cannot come to Christ unless God enables them (John 6:40, John 6:65).
God is the one who grants repentance (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25, Acts 11:18).

Please look up all these verses.

God can achieve what He wants - man's so-called "free will" will not stand in the way of God achieving His will and desire to save all people. Saul's conversion into to Paul is the model conversion that all of us will experience. Saul had no choice in the matter - He only asked "what shall I do Lord?". He was converted in an instant, not because of His own will but because of God's will. That is how God works. He saves people when He wants to save them.

[tdinh]

Ok then, they are thrown out into the darkness, and eventually forgiven, right? Where else in scripture does it talk about this darkness right outside God's kingdom in which those who would not inherit His Kingdom reside?

You know the sheep and goat parable that I put up, anyhow, it will be both a darkness as scripture states, and also a blazing furnace. Read these-

“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Don't see forgiveness and don't see them being just outside the gates of Heaven.

Matt 13:
“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

We know based on the above scripture it tells of the unbelievers who will be in bundles to be burned.

Here, the above scripture explained:

The Parable of the Weeds Explained in Matthew


Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

A clear separation.

I posted this on a prior reply, and I want your opinion-


You have seen me post many times the following scriptures of those who will not enter His kingdom, remember?-

1 Corinthians 6:10- Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Now I have posted these three verses to show you a few things, ok. I put in bold sexually immoral and liars, and I will explain why. You can see that all three scriptures show those who will not inherit God’s kingdom and the sexually immoral is amongst a few traits that will not be welcomed in, along with liars.

Now we both can agree that the devil is a liar and a father of lies, correct? Here is a scripture of that:


John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Let’s also look at the scripture of the sheep and goats again, ok, because both the goats and the devil have the same fate-

The Sheep and the Goats

Matthew 25:31-
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left… “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels… “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So we can conceive that, amongst other traits, the sexually immoral and the liars will not inherit the kingdom of God, correct? We can see from scripture that the devil is a liar and father of lies, who as scripture states, will never inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, why? Because he is a liar and father of lies. In the above scritptures the father of lies, satan, along with the demons that follow him will have the same fate as the goats, or vice versa, who will not be in God’s kingdom.

I also put in bold eternal punishment and eternal life. We can conceive that punishment is horrid especially because Jesus had said it, but life is good because Jesus said it. So regardless of the view about eternal, whether you think it is age this or age to age or whatever, we can conclude that it will be equal eternal, whether it be unto punishment or unto life. What I do not understand is why there is a double standard when one, as yourself is more than happy to conclude that eternal life is good and everlasting, but eternal punishment is maybe not necessarily bad, but will be good once one has a chance to repent.

My conclusion is that the devil is a liar and as scripture states all liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. I can conclude that, amongst other traits, the sexually immoral, which is in all three of those scriptures, along with liars, who are in the same boat as the goats and devil will not be inheriting God’s kingdom. That being said, how can you conclude otherwise?

Sorry bro, the weeds, goats, devil and his angels will be consigned to the same place in which judgment is set forth for eternity- condemned.

You also state:

Matt 12:32 clarifies this and says blasphemy of the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. But there are more ages than just these 2. Beyond them it could be forgiven.

Yes in a future age. There are many ages to come. Blasphemy is not forgiven in 2 of them.

You state above one will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, correct. Show me in the Bible in the 3rd or whatever age they will be forgiven in this grave sin. Where in scritpure does it state not this age or the age to come or the age to come but the next following age? Show me.

You state:
You put man's will above God's actions. You fail to understand how God can influence people. God will pour His spirit out on all people, and all people will confess His name - and the only way people can confess His name if they have His spirit.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Where in scritpure does it state that "all will confess His name?" You are correct, they all will IF THEY HAVE HIS SPIRIT? But one must confess a repentance and accept Him into their heart.

You state:
I don't claim to know any specifics on God's judgments. Its represented symbolically by God's refining fire. They will be corrective and they will teach people righteousness - because that is what judgment is for. Its not for torturing people eternally.

You are right in the above reply, you do not know, but yet you act like you do know. Where does it talk about a blazing furnace where wheeping and gnashing of teeth are, or the lake of fire are His refining judgments. You know why you won't find it, because it is not in the Bible thats why. You claim that through this people will be taught righteoussness, if you claim you don't know His judgments, why are you making that claim? How then can you claim that is what His judgment is for, but at the same time saying what it is not? Don't take this personally, but you are saying one thing, but yet another in the same paragraph. Finally, where, symbolically does it talk about His refining fire, and His judgments, which you do not specially know claim one will go through it and be saved?

Let me rephrase in black in white- If God condemned those who rejected the cross, either by never knowing Him when He reached out, or may have knew Him and blasphemed His SPirirt, possibly being taken out of the Book of Life, as my interpretation of the Bible states, you are saying He would be a tyrant, angry, manipulative, evil Being, is that correct? Don't give me a light answer and change a few words around, would He be that? Would you then condemn the One if He was the One I described as all of those things?

I have read Isaiah 46:10 and Job 23:13, that does not negate that He has a judgment very different than your opinion that is Bible based.

Let's show 1 Corin. 15 in its proper context:

he Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 1516 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.



Do you not realize that there again is a separation of no reconciliation if someone is dead or lost unto the 1st death before judgment. There is a reason for this separation.


You also state:
Your belief is faulty here because you do not acknowledge God's sovereignty and power in all things.

God knows all things (numerous verses).
God has declared everything that will happen (Isa 46:10-11).
God can achieve anything He desires (Isa 46:10, Isa 55:11, Job 23:13).
God is working all things for His purpose (Eph 1:11).
God directs man's steps (Prov 19:20, Prov 20:24, Prov 21:1, Jer 10:23).
Man cannot come to Christ unless God enables them (John 6:40, John 6:65).
God is the one who grants repentance (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25, Acts 11:18).

The above scriptures do not negate the fact God has a different judgment, one that is Bible based, not on your own opinion. You claim God is soverign, which I do to, but if God was so soverign to push His will and save those who reject Him, why can He not be soverign enough to make a world without sin? You ever think of that. Why? Because God is soverign enough to let the devil and the fallen angels choose, adam and eve to choose, and mankind to choose.

God is soverign enough to do all of the above scriptures and also allow man to decide for Him or against Him, love what is good or love what is evil? In His eyes, His judgments that are biblical are just.

You also state:

God can achieve what He wants - man's so-called "free will" will not stand in the way of God achieving His will and desire to save all people. Saul's conversion into to Paul is the model conversion that all of us will experience. Saul had no choice in the matter - He only asked "what shall I do Lord?". He was converted in an instant, not because of His own will but because of God's will. That is how God works. He saves people when He wants to save them.

That's great, you show a man that sought after the law (which I am not condmening) and did whatever it took to fulfil it. He acknowledged was puffed up and though paul, which was saul, tried to condemn, Christ knew His heart to show him His ways.Thats all fine and dandy that you have an example in your belief, but you fail to show the other side of the coin- Judas, the traitor; Isralites who died in the desert etc... There are both two sides of a coin, let's show them both.

[tdinh]

Instead of giving me a round about question, why don't you explain yourself and tell me your intent, and I will happily answer you based on Biblical scriptures.

Originally Posted by herefornow

I'd like a biblical answer for the Sodom and Gomorrah question. There are a couple of verses I'm interested in. Also, concerning witchcraft. Do you know much about it? As in what the people of the Old Testament believed about it? And, how much of the "dark arts" does God control?

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Instead of giving me a round about question, why don't you explain yourself and tell me your intent, and I will happily answer you based on Biblical scriptures.

Not a chance, tdinh. I just want a simple biblical answer.

[tdinh]

Well, at first glance, one would think it was specifically, homosexually, but I don't believe that was the one and only sin. Sodomy would have been refered to as anal sex between two men, in which a homo sexual gang rap of the two angels, which never transpired because the angels blinded them.

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestableLeviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion."

So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.
things before me..." The Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in

I already commented on witchcraft, so what is your point in asking?

Originally Posted by herefornow

Not a chance, tdinh. I just want a simple biblical answer.

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Well, at first glance, one would think it was specifically, homosexually, but I don't believe that was the one and only sin. Sodomy would have been refered to as anal sex between two men, in which a homo sexual gang rap of the two angels, which never transpired because the angels blinded them.

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares,. They were haughty and did detestableLeviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion."

So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.
things before me..." The Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in

I already commented on witchcraft, so what is your point in asking?

What I'm really getting at, here, tdinh, is that much of the organized religious system is a part of all of this, whether it knows it or not. It is exactly all of these things. Put the sodomy behind you for a second ().

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is what the church and it's political systems are a part of, today!! You don't get it yet? The church is Babylon. It is a horrible mixture of confusion and darkness. It is using the name of Christ and it talks about the Bible, but it is completely lost. Wandering around without the fountain. "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.<<<----Do you think this is no big thing??

And do you know why rebellion is like witchcraft? Do you really know what witchcraft is? No. And the church has no idea what it is, either. When people think of witchcraft they think of demons and possession and people running around in the dark. Lol. No, no, and no. Much of the church is involved in "witchcraft," or at least supports it. Who do you think is in control of all of this, tdinh? Who?

These are the real dark arts, tdinh: Manipulation, mind control, fear, power, lying, propaganda, using your knowledge for evil, taking advantage of the weak and poor, superstition, giving evil too much power in your own mind and not allowing God to have that power, threatening, judging, self-righteousness, anger, allowing myths to blend with the truth, etc., etc.

Do you know what much of the "church" has done and what it supports?? Do you? Do you know why it's empty in there? Do you know how much power the church has given to evil? Do you know what Bill Wiese has done to thousands of children's souls?

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by herefornow

What I'm really getting at, here, tdinh, is that much of the organized religious system is a part of all of this, whether it knows it or not. It is exactly all of these things. Put the sodomy behind you for a second ().

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is what the church and it's political systems are a part of, today!! You don't get it yet? The church is Babylon. It is a horrible mixture of confusion and darkness. It is using the name of Christ and it talks about the Bible, but it is completely lost. Wandering around without the fountain. "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.<<<----Do you think this is no big thing??

And do you know why rebellion is like witchcraft? Do you really know what witchcraft is? No. And the church has no idea what it is, either. When people think of witchcraft they think of demons and possession and people running around in the dark. Lol. No, no, and no. Much of the church is involved in "witchcraft," or at least supports it. Who do you think is in control of all of this, tdinh? Who?

These are the real dark arts, tdinh: Manipulation, mind control, fear, power, lying, propaganda, using your knowledge for evil, taking advantage of the weak and poor, superstition, giving evil too much power in your own mind and not allowing God to have that power, threatening, judging, self-righteousness, anger, allowing myths to blend with the truth, etc., etc.

Do you know what much of the "church" has done and what it supports?? Do you? Do you know why it's empty in there? Do you know how much power the church has given to evil? Do you know what Bill Wiese has done to thousands of children's souls?

He is unconcerned, and carries a sign that says, "Exit Only." ()

[sschulz]

Hey tdinh: I see you have been busy talking with other about this topic.

Of course God used pharaoh for his plan but he did not have one plan and then when pharaoh did not comply move on to plan two. God only has one plan and no one can interfere with it.

As for the devil worshipers and others do you think they are worse than the people who actually killed Jesus , the very son of God? What did Jesus say from the cross" Father forgive them."

Of course neither God or Jesus would welcome any one like that into his kingdom. But when" God's judgments are in the earth all men will learn righteousness"

I think what you do not understand is what the Kingdom of God is. Jesus rose in resurrection as the first fruits. When he returns he will collect his elect, those that will rule with him in heaven and they will judge not only mankind but the angels themselves ( 1 Corinthians 6:3) The elect are the one talked about who judge themselves( judgment does not mean choose between right or wrong a better definition would be to chastise or prune causing a change in the heart) with the aid of God.

You are right ,in that all those in the verses you posted do not enter the kingdom of God. But this is not the end The kingdom of God is ruled by Jesus with his elect and it will end. Jesus does not rule forever. He rules till all enemies including death are placed under his feet( 1 Corinthians 15:25-29) and the Son( Jesus) shall subject to Him (the Father) who subjected all things to him(Jesus)that God(the Father) may be all in all.


25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- 26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.



Ref Matthew 25:31-46 the last verse reads in literal translation as thus:


And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'



This means that the separation of the goats and the sheep means that those that go to live with him in the Kingdom of God and the others to chastisement age during in which they will be corrected and repent and be cleansed and saved.


Of course we should read the Bible and believe in Christ, What of those who can't do that because of circumstance not under their control-not able to read, in a country that doesn't allow Christianity, never heard of Jesus and other reasons, what happens to them? Under the doctrine I follow they will be chastised and repent and be cleansed and saved under yours they will burn forever because they had no chance to learn about Jesus- sound fair to you Now they will get the few striped rather than the many stripe of those who willfully rejected Jesus but all will be saved.



As for free will I explained that earlier, We don't have it.


WE ARE THE CLAY GOD IS THE POTTER. Clay does not have free will.

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

He is unconcerned, and carries a sign that says, "Exit Only." ()

Lol, Jerwade. Unconcerned, probably. The church seems to be obsessed with the rectum and demons. Can't figure that one out.