Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Actually it was 31 years ago, 1977. After a year or so I started leading worship for a small start up independent charismatic church where I worked as a volunteer for 9 years (worship team and sound for services/evangelistic crusades). Then a short, part time stint at a big word of faith church and then a 20 year full-time position at another independent charismatic church. Basically just very dynamic worship/teaching/aggressive evangelism, ie: door to door - outdoor services in neighborhoods etc.
Bottom line is I just couldn't stomach the ET doctrine anymore.
I had a 5 hour nose to nose with my pastor about ET/UR and it was really amazing. He's not buying into it right now, but at the same time I'm sure he'll never be quite the same. I worked with him all 20 years.
blessings,
- Byron
I feel your pain....I was booted out of church for being a Full Preterist. When a pastor/preacher/teacher can't answer questioning flock, why are we following him anyway.
I feel your pain....I was booted out of church for being a Full Preterist. When a pastor/preacher/teacher can't answer questioning flock, why are we following him anyway.
I guess (for many) when you take away eternal hell and the rapture - there's not a whole lot left?
I'm glad that this subject came up. Here is the record of the first evangelism: (NKJV)
Acts 2:22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- 23Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25For David says concerning Him:
"I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'
29"Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
"The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
36"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Conspicuously missing is any mention of eternal torment or threats of Geheena fire, or any other such thing. That's because the gospel is really about restoring that which was 'lost', which is relationship and fellowship with God.
Now, here's Paul evangelizing religious pagans. A perfect time to warn them about the terrible fiery pit which awaits them if they don't respond to His message, right?
Acts 17:22-34 "So Paul, standing in the middle of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. And He made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after Him and find him. Yet He is not far from each one of us, for 'In Him we live and move and have our being'"
"as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed, and of this He has given assurance to all men by raising Him from the dead."
"Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from among them. But some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them." (RSV)
Again, modern evangelist's would probably accuse Paul of wimping out, and not giving them the real hell fire message. I mean, come on - if he doesn't tell them the whole counsel of God, their eternal torment will be on His hands, right? Why do you think he left that part out?
So go through the entire book of acts - 30 years of Apostolic ministry and not one mention of Geheena fire. Zero - none.
I hope this helps you understand why I can preach salvation even though I'm a CU like Paul was. I've even seen hardened old retired military officers break down when confronted with the awesome message of God's redemption, which frankly, shocked me to no end.
Blessings,
- Byron
The Gehenna Fire Jesus spoke about referred to the coming destruction of Jerusalmen and had nothing to do with ET
I am going to lay out some basic tenants of my belief. I would like for all of you Universalists to do the same without quoting 1400 pages of commentary, 35 lines of scripture or attempt to give Greek lessons. Can you do it?
I believe in the word of reconciliation ... I disagree with some of what you have stated concerning your belief system.
Quote:
I'll start:
I believe sin entered the world through one man and because of that every person born is born with a sin "stain".
I agree that sin came into the word through the actions of one man and also death for all people ... And i believe that the same people(all people) who sin and die because of the first Adam, will be made alive in the second Adam, who is Christ.
Quote:
I believe God came to earth as a man, lived a perfect sinless life and voluntarily gave his life as payment for our sin.
Agreed, not for our(the house of faith) sins only, but for the sins of the whole cosmos.
Quote:
I believe that forgiveness is "free" and available to all who will come.
I agree it is free and available to all. But i dont agree with the idea that men choose to come to Christ. I believe that God chooses us and drags us to Christ by the power of his spirit. I believe the doctrine of free will is in many way fallacious. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God.
Quote:
I believe that some will not respond and receive the due delayed penalty for their sin nature.
I believe that many are blinded and deceived and that God has chosen not to reveal himself to them in this age. I believe that they will experience correction in the fullness of times and that eventually because of Gods fiery judgments, even Satan and his fallen angels, not to mention every human being ever to have lived, will be reconciled to god and will serve him and worship him "willingly".
Quote:
I believe when someone dies their spirit is immediately taken to either a temporary "heaven" or a "hell".
I believe that when ever any person dies, even mass murderers and rapists ... That the breath of life(spirit) in them Goes back to God who gave it. I believe hell is a pagan myth and false doctrine perpetrated on humanity in order to control them through fear of endless suffering. The only reason it appears to be in the bible is because of purposeful mistranslation of various aspects of the bible.
Quote:
I believe Jesus will return and raise the dead to life both saved and not saved where soul and body will be reconciled for the final judgment.
I believe there are multiple resurrections, at least two which the bible distinguishes between. The resurrection of the righteous and then the resurrection of the wicked. I believe that the righteous will be resurrected to rule with Christ for a thousand years. I believe the wicked will be resurrected to face fiery judgment which will be the final stage in Gods plan to reconcile all things to himself through Christ. That is to say i believe the lake of fire is not eternal torture but finite purification. After which those saved as though by fire will enter into the new heavens and the new earth, and God will be all in all ...
Quote:
I believe those who rejected Jesus and are currently in "Hades" will be sent to final and eternal damnation known as the "lake of fire".
I believe those who accepted Christ will have what originally was in the beginning restored - a new heaven and a new earth where God walks among his people and they commune with him. The Kingdom and Paradise restored.
See above ...
Quote:
All praise be to the Lord Almighty.
Those are the basics without getting into doctrinal views such as predestination etc.
Would you kindly please list a simple "paint-by-numbers" view of your beliefs in return?
Peace and Grace to all.
God bless friend, and may you find what ever it is you are looking for.
I am going to lay out some basic tenants of my belief. I would like for all of you Universalists to do the same without quoting 1400 pages of commentary, 35 lines of scripture or attempt to give Greek lessons. Can you do it?
I'll start:
I believe sin entered the world through one man and because of that every person born is born with a sin "stain".
I believe God came to earth as a man, lived a perfect sinless life and voluntarily gave his life as payment for our sin.
I believe that forgiveness is "free" and available to all who will come.
I believe that some will not respond and receive the due delayed penalty for their sin nature.
I believe when someone dies their spirit is immediately taken to either a temporary "heaven" or a "hell".
I believe Jesus will return and raise the dead to life both saved and not saved where soul and body will be reconciled for the final judgment.
I believe those who rejected Jesus and are currently in "Hades" will be sent to final and eternal damnation known as the "lake of fire".
I believe those who accepted Christ will have what originally was in the beginning restored - a new heaven and a new earth where God walks among his people and they commune with him. The Kingdom and Paradise restored.
All praise be to the Lord Almighty.
Those are the basics without getting into doctrinal views such as predestination etc.
Would you kindly please list a simple "paint-by-numbers" view of your beliefs in return?
Peace and Grace to all.
I believe what we recite at every Catholic Mass:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Never too late to consider the eternal!
