Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
Actually, the word seems to indicate "deaconess". Not someone that would teach or hold authority.
In any event.....in 1 Tim 3 it outlines the qualifications for a deacon, and a major part of it is to be male. 1 Tim 3:11 refers to their wives--which is to suggest it was assumed they were men. There really isn't an indication that Phoebe held the office of deaconess, in as much as it was calling her a servant.
Actually, the word seems to indicate "deaconess". Not someone that would teach or hold authority.
In any event.....in 1 Tim 3 it outlines the qualifications for a deacon, and a major part of it is to be male. 1 Tim 3:11 refers to their wives--which is to suggest it was assumed they were men. There really isn't an indication that Phoebe held the office of deaconess, in as much as it was calling her a servant.
Now there's some unsuccessful backpedaling. Perhaps it took them awhile to realize that when He said there was neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, to a male dominated society that had ruled that way for centuries upon centuries, He really MEANT it. Must have been quite a shock to them when the gifts of the Spirit began raising up in the women and as they matured in HIM, even more than that.
Would have loved to have been there when the prophetic gift in a woman raised up and rebuked one of the wayward men for something. Probably could of heard a pin drop, but since the anointing carries a tangible authority with it as a natural consequence, no one dared oppose the Spirit in her. Peace
Now there's some unsuccessful backpedaling. Perhaps it took them awhile to realize that when He said there was neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, to a male dominated society that had ruled that way for centuries upon centuries, He really MEANT it. Must have been quite a shock to them when the gifts of the Spirit began raising up in the women and as they matured in HIM, even more than that.
Would have loved to have been there when the prophetic gift in a woman raised up and rebuked one of the wayward men for something. Probably could of heard a pin drop, but since the anointing carries a tangible authority with it as a natural consequence, no one dared oppose the Spirit in her. Peace
Read the context of the "no male nor female". You'll find it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of church leadership. It's about salvation. That's it.
You can say what you want, but 1 Tim 3 explicitly forbids women from preaching and serving as pastors/elders. Why are you trying to put one scripture against another? Instead of saying 1 Tim 3 is simply wrong, why not try to figure out why the same guy would write both passages and maybe try to reconcile them?
Actually, the word seems to indicate "deaconess". Not someone that would teach or hold authority.
In any event.....in 1 Tim 3 it outlines the qualifications for a deacon, and a major part of it is to be male. 1 Tim 3:11 refers to their wives--which is to suggest it was assumed they were men. There really isn't an indication that Phoebe held the office of deaconess, in as much as it was calling her a servant.
Actually, it was the word "deacon" that was in the earliest known manuscripts of Romans, not 'helper' as some of the more dishonest translations tried to pass off. What's more, the feminine version of the noun was not found in manuscripts until the 5th century. As for the rest, there's really no foundation for your assertion.
Read the context of the "no male nor female". You'll find it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of church leadership. It's about salvation. That's it.
You can say what you want, but 1 Tim 3 explicitly forbids women from preaching and serving as pastors/elders. Why are you trying to put one scripture against another? Instead of saying 1 Tim 3 is simply wrong, why not try to figure out why the same guy would write both passages and maybe try to reconcile them?
It has everything to do with church leadership because there is not either/or but BOTH in Christ Jesus, that means, in the SPIRIT. And if in the Spirit, then the Spirit is perfectly capable of using either/or flesh body.
Because I've already reconciled them by the understanding of what is soul/female and what is Spirit/male. I'm not saying the letter didn't say it, but it also mentions women in positions that were not traditional, so what do you think happened that caused an apparent contradiction?
I think the Spirit behind the letter after a season, had matured them enough for both to be true at their respective stages of growth. None of the men would have received from a woman in that culture UNLESS the Spirit of the Lord had grown to such a degree in one of them that they could not ignore the fact it was Him. Much the same as what is happening in the body today. Peace
It has everything to do with church leadership because there is not either/or but BOTH in Christ Jesus, that means, in the SPIRIT. And if in the Spirit, then the Spirit is perfectly capable of using either/or flesh body.
Again...read the context. 2 different books, completely different topics. And the office of pastor/elder is not just a gifting of the Spirit.
Quote:
Because I've already reconciled them by the understanding of what is soul/female and what is Spirit/male.
I have no clue what you mean by that.
Quote:
I'm not saying the letter didn't say it, but it also mentions women in positions that were not traditional, so what do you think happened that caused an apparent contradiction?
What positions were those? Can you elaborate?
I'll clarify: It's not a contradiction. Phoebe was a servant of the church, but she did not hold the office of deacon, nor was she a pastor/elder who taught. This passage does NOT override the Biblical prohibition of women pastors and elders.
Quote:
I think the Spirit behind the letter after a season, had matured them enough for both to be true at their respective stages of growth. None of the men would have received from a woman in that culture UNLESS the Spirit of the Lord had grown to such a degree in one of them that they could not ignore the fact it was Him. Much the same as what is happening in the body today. Peace
Interesting, because 1 Tim says nothing like that. It even goes back to the order of Creation, and points out that it's NOT a temporary or cultural issue.
Actually, it was the word "deacon" that was in the earliest known manuscripts of Romans, not 'helper' as some of the more dishonest translations tried to pass off. What's more, the feminine version of the noun was not found in manuscripts until the 5th century. As for the rest, there's really no foundation for your assertion.
A deacon is a helper, so that the pastor can focus on teaching the Word.
Again...read the context. 2 different books, completely different topics. And the office of pastor/elder is not just a gifting of the Spirit.
I have no clue what you mean by that.
What positions were those? Can you elaborate?
I'll clarify: It's not a contradiction. Phoebe was a servant of the church, but she did not hold the office of deacon, nor was she a pastor/elder who taught. This passage does NOT override the Biblical prohibition of women pastors and elders.
Interesting, because 1 Tim says nothing like that. It even goes back to the order of Creation, and points out that it's NOT a temporary or cultural issue.
Well, it all falls apart if you understand that the 5 "offices" are not offices at all, but rather portions of HIM who is Spirit, given at Pentecost, representative of the WORKS He does, which is why it says the Holy Ghost does the works.
There were 5 pillars in between the outer court and the inner court, and we were made spiritual priests by virtue of having to pass through that curtain they held up, representative of the experience of one or more of those 5 gifts being deposited as the earnest of their inheritance (the inheritance of the priests is G-d HIMSELF). Men, in their vainglory, thought the people were the gifts given for the maturing of the body, forgetting that every good and perfect gift comes from ABOVE. They are as the right hand of G-d.
The thumb = apostle, because the rest can grasp nothing without it.
The first finger = prophet, because they both tear down and build up by pointing out error
The middle finger = evangelist, because their territory extends farther
The ring finger = shepherd, because they are wedded to the flock and will give their life for the sheep
The little finger = teacher, the smallest but it goes in the ear the easiest
And again, going back to creation, it said He made THEM (not just one of them but BOTH OF THEM) male and female, as in, male and female made He THEM. The soul is feminine because it reproduces the nature of whatever seed is planted in it, the Spirit is male because the male plants the Seed.
And so in the beginning, before the fall, the man/spirit DID rule over the womb-man, the soul. And those that are now neither male nor female IN CHRIST JESUS, can again bring the correct order to bear by not allowing the soul to speak out of their vessel, no matter whether that vessel is male or female after the flesh. And as far as order goes, lest there be any confusion, His order is whatever He wants, for as many as are led by the SPIRIT, they are the sons (both male and female after the flesh) of G-d. Peace
So you really believe in the 1st century 1) there was a liturgy, and 2) His servants were "ordained", and 3) Peter, the apostle to the JEWS, was appointed "head" of the body in Christ's stead? Better start reading some non-Catholic based history. Peace
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
