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And just since i'm here, i witness a third kind of homosexual, that one who has not emotionally matured past the "girls have cooties" stage inherent in all people, who start with a circle that contains only themselves, at birth, widens to include the same sex, and then widens again at puberty, hopefully. Are these hedonists? They don't strike me as hedonists. Do they have a maturity issue? Who doesn't?
You and others continue to miss the point because you are SO wrapped up in the idea that the Bible is completely approved by God. The point is that it is NOT and that those citations PROOVE it to anyone who has had an encounter with the Spirit that IS the concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation that we know as "agape."
well, i'm finding it hard to accept that "(i) am SO wrapped up in the idea that the Bible is completely approved by God," because i am quick to point out to others that the OT is a record of failure. So i have to think about the rest, but my argument is likely going to be that the Jews were trying to do agape as best they could then too, nobody wants to stone people for sex, there was just a societal justification for it, accepted in other societies including ours, even today. Sleep around on your spouse and they are going to want to kill you, and everyone understands why.
"An eye for an eye" is NOT about revenge, whether it is limiting revenge or not?
well, the qualifier is not really fair, imo--an eye for an eye prevents people from killing you for bumping into them. So it is about making a law--or actually approving the Hammurabic law; i guess it even predates Hammurabi--proscribing human behavior during a time God terms "the time of death." and Christ superseded this law in the NT, right?
Short version
Speak life. Life and freedom come through Christ. Bondage and death comes from sin. Life must come first.
So, we disagree on what actions are sin, but can we agree that we are all sinners. There should be plenty of actions we can agree on that are sinful. Sin separates us from God. Jesus Christ is the only way for us to be reconciled. Can we agree on that? This is the Christian forum so I hope so.
Long Version
I had the opportunity to be the guest speaker at our church on Sunday. What I tried to make clear was regardless of where we are at (Romans 5:8), Christ died for us. We become Christians by accepting Christ in whatever state we are in. Then sanctification (becoming Christ like) comes which will be different for everyone. Sin is sin. All sin leads to death.
We should be able to call sin, sin. We are not told to not call out sin. We are told to be very careful when doing so. As Other99 pointed out, Jesus forgave the women, but did tell her to stop her sinful behavior.
Others made mention of not being sure why pornography is wrong. But, I don't believe we are to have sexual fantasies or feed those fantasies outside of our spouse (and to be fair, as a man, I do believe that should only be a woman, but clearly, we are not all in agreement there). In general, men are visual creatures. So if a naked women walks in front of my path, it would be extremely difficult to just ignore it. But with pornography, it did not just cross my path, I sought it out.
My daughter teaches the Bible. She has taught the Bible to men. I have struggled with this. But, if the worst thing someone can say about her, if her worst sin is (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) that she taught the Word of God to men, I don't think God will be too upset. I tell her I love her and that I am proud of her.
Does this help bring any common ground here?
cd :O)
well, the qualifier is not really fair, imo--an eye for an eye prevents people from killing you for bumping into them. So it is about making a law--or actually approving the Hammurabic law; i guess it even predates Hammurabi--proscribing human behavior during a time God terms "the time of death." and Christ superseded this law in the NT, right?
And the point remains that it sanctions revenge, which Jesus DID say was not a good thing. Contradiction.
And the point remains that it sanctions revenge, which Jesus DID say was not a good thing. Contradiction.
well, to that i would say that the Bible openly admits that law was insufficient, and we are to follow Christ. The sanction might be viewed in the context of "this far, and no further," but you are free to choose how you interpret where God stands on the matter, of course. Recognize that your choice defines you.
Short version
Speak life. Life and freedom come through Christ. Bondage and death comes from sin. Life must come first.
So, we disagree on what actions are sin, but can we agree that we are all sinners. There should be plenty of actions we can agree on that are sinful. Sin separates us from God. Jesus Christ is the only way for us to be reconciled. Can we agree on that? This is the Christian forum so I hope so.
Long Version
I had the opportunity to be the guest speaker at our church on Sunday. What I tried to make clear was regardless of where we are at (Romans 5:8), Christ died for us. We become Christians by accepting Christ in whatever state we are in. Then sanctification (becoming Christ like) comes which will be different for everyone. Sin is sin. All sin leads to death.
We should be able to call sin, sin. We are not told to not call out sin. We are told to be very careful when doing so. As Other99 pointed out, Jesus forgave the women, but did tell her to stop her sinful behavior.
Others made mention of not being sure why pornography is wrong. But, I don't believe we are to have sexual fantasies or feed those fantasies outside of our spouse (and to be fair, as a man, I do believe that should only be a woman, but clearly, we are not all in agreement there). In general, men are visual creatures. So if a naked women walks in front of my path, it would be extremely difficult to just ignore it. But with pornography, it did not just cross my path, I sought it out.
My daughter teaches the Bible. She has taught the Bible to men. I have struggled with this. But, if the worst thing someone can say about her, if her worst sin is (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) that she taught the Word of God to men, I don't think God will be too upset. I tell her I love her and that I am proud of her.
Does this help bring any common ground here?
cd :O)
If you want feedback on that from an atheist exChristian here it is.
Agreed column:
Speak life.
Life and freedom come through Christ (fair enough if that's what you want to call it)
Life must come first. (if by that you mean the well being of the person)
I don't agree with the notion of sin. That's not to say I think that anything goes. I'm just stating that perfect isn't what I am going for so I can't sin by falling short of that. I screw up, I make mistakes, I learn, I do better, I evolve.
well, to that i would say that the Bible openly admits that law was insufficient, and we are to follow Christ. The sanction might be viewed in the context of "this far, and no further," but you are free to choose how you interpret where God stands on the matter, of course. Recognize that your choice defines you.
Halleluia! NOW take a look at what is DIFFERENT about following Christ from following LAW.
If you want feedback on that from an atheist exChristian here it is.
Life must come first. (if by that you mean the well being of the person)
I mean Salvation must come first. As far as Christian thought, a truly changed life starts with belief in Christ (salvation). Which when extended out would ultimately mean the well being of the person.
I'm glad an atheist exChristian and Christian xatheist can find some common ground.
cd :O)
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