Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Bible ( New Testament) is more more the "Word" of God thru human beings ( Apostles interpretations) than the Koran is the "WORD" of Allah thru Muhammed ( written by another human as Muhammed was illiterate and unable to write).
Human's are NOT perfect nor come to write their interpretation free of biases or personal influences of the times. Since both Jesus and Muhammed were preachers of the word..both Islam and Christianity can only rely on the writings of human's who interpret what they both said as they saw and heard it. Much of their writing was describing the teaching in parables or stories that described what they meant by their teachings by word to the masses. However, many make a huge error to ascribe literalism to those words used from thousand's of years ago. Meaning of words have evolved..and have various applications..thus causes arguments and differences in the "Meanings" behind what's written in both the New Testament and the Koran!
I sure wish, people would read the bible to seek comfort..NOT looking for scriptures to Justify their partisan view points. That is a dead end..because for every scripture quoted to justify a certain biases..the opposite can be quoted to counter that. Trying to compare life today as written thousands years ago by human being applying their personal biases of that time seems rather odd to me. Life today is no where near what life is today in the 21st Century?? It's like trying to compare Apples to Asparagus. Fruit versus Vegetable ..while both great..they are not comparable except both give nutrition and sustenance to the person.
I aways read the Bible for Comfort ..NOT to direct my life as much to comfort me when in times of strife or challenges. WE have to deal daily with challenges ..and it's up to the individual to deal with it according to the teachings each individual has evolved to. Blaming God your strife is unfruitful but a common default for some..then there's those who blame others for their decision made.. But in the end..while others often put you into difficult situations..It's up to the individual to deal with it the best way they can. Many do rise up and protest peacefully ..other's retreat into some hole..other's become aggressive, combative to feel better.
Some posters do differentiate clearly just where their at.. Just saying and I can't judge anyone..but evidence sure educates and validates my particular viewpoint
The Bible ( New Testament) is more more the "Word" of God thru human beings ( Apostles interpretations) than the Koran is the "WORD" of Allah thru Muhammed ( written by another human as Muhammed was illiterate and unable to write).
Human's are NOT perfect nor come to write their interpretation free of biases or personal influences of the times. Since both Jesus and Muhammed were preachers of the word..both Islam and Christianity can only rely on the writings of human's who interpret what they both said as they saw and heard it. Much of their writing was describing the teaching in parables or stories that described what they meant by their teachings by word to the masses. However, many make a huge error to ascribe literalism to those words used from thousand's of years ago. Meaning of words have evolved..and have various applications..thus causes arguments and differences in the "Meanings" behind what's written in both the New Testament and the Koran!
I sure wish, people would read the bible to seek comfort..NOT looking for scriptures to Justify their partisan view points. That is a dead end..because for every scripture quoted to justify a certain biases..the opposite can be quoted to counter that. Trying to compare life today as written thousands years ago by human being applying their personal biases of that time seems rather odd to me. Life today is no where near what life is today in the 21st Century?? It's like trying to compare Apples to Asparagus. Fruit versus Vegetable ..while both great..they are not comparable except both give nutrition and sustenance to the person.
I aways read the Bible for Comfort ..NOT to direct my life as much to comfort me when in times of strife or challenges. WE have to deal daily with challenges ..and it's up to the individual to deal with it according to the teachings each individual has evolved to. Blaming God your strife is unfruitful but a common default for some..then there's those who blame others for their decision made.. But in the end..while others often put you into difficult situations..It's up to the individual to deal with it the best way they can. Many do rise up and protest peacefully ..other's retreat into some hole..other's become aggressive, combative to feel better.
Some posters do differentiate clearly just where their at.. Just saying and I can't judge anyone..but evidence sure educates and validates my particular viewpoint
Why can people not find comfort in the Quran??
The majority of scribes who copied the bible were also ILLITERATE and UNEDUCATED...
Seriously? I don't know where you got your info on the scribes, but that is totally false. Peace
It was not always false. Some scribes knew how to copy--fairly accurately--but couldn't actually read what they were writing. I read an example in some scholarly work just in the past year. One of the early church fathers was out of sorts because of copying errors by a scribe who couldn't read. (I think I got it from Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus).
There are hundreds of thousands of errors between the 5700 manuscripts (from fragments, to partial books, to complete books). Indeed, Ehrman maintains there are more errors than there are words in the NT. The vast majority are not important--but a few are.
Mark 16:9-20 is an addition by a scribe. It is not in our oldest texts. The story of the woman caught in adultery is another addition. And finally, the most important verse supporting the dogma of the Trinity was altered.
Quote:
Three of these passages have been considered inauthentic by most NT scholars—including most evangelical NT scholars—for well over a century (Mark 16.9–20; John 7.53–8.11; and 1 John 5.7–8).
Note that Wallace spends much of his energy in an apologetic---some of which I agree with--regarding what scribes have inserted or changed over the years for their own purposes. He does not agree with Ehrman.
But educated people want to know ALL sides of something that could be critical in determining interpretation. They want to know the biases of the authors (Ehrman is biased as an agnostic, Wallace is biased because of the position he holds in one of the most conservative seminaries on the planet).
People get upset with finding some verses and sections in our English Bibles shouldn't be there, but that is because from the pulpit, educated pastors have been reluctant to mention it. Indeed, the story of the woman caught in adultery was declared to actually BE Scripture by Papal decree.
In Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee there are many church communities that follow the added wording of Mark 16:9-20 by handling snakes. Just about every year someone dies from it--but on and on it continues because "it's in the Bible."
The entire doctrine of the Trinity (which I believe) was primarily supported by the verses of I John 5:7-8 which were incorrect in the KJV and the NKJV (I think). It was the sole Bible in 1776 when Edward Gibbon scandalized Great Britain by including in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire the lack of integrity in those verses. Every modern translation I am aware of no longer says
Quote:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
KJV I John 5:7-8
but rather
Quote:
For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
ESV I John 5:7-8
This is why I think no one should be barred by others for not "believing" in the Trinity. All other biblical evidence is circumstantial. I think it is good evidence, but there is enough doubt that it simply is foolish to hold it out as a cardinal belief.
Bottom line---scribes made lots of errors--a few of them intentional such as the one above that was inserted into the KJV in 1522 by political pressure.
It is most important for people to see ALL the possibilities. If it destroys their faith, then that faith wasn't much to begin with--and if it doesn't, then they truly have faith to which they can cling.
From a site about biblical training, an overview....
"The purpose of this study limits investigation to the development of education in Israel and the Early Church. But it will be necessary to say a few words about the background out of which Israel’s educational ideals developed. Educational systems had evolved as early as the 3rd millennium b.c. There are a number of school texts dating from about 2,500 b.c. From these documents we learn of numerous schools for scribes in ancient Sumer. In these schools literary works were copied and studied. The study was connected with the training for the needs of the Temple, palace courts and the administration of the empire. Education of this kind was voluntary and costly, and pupils were drawn from the upper class. Subjects studied were botany, zoology, geology, geography, mathematics, languages and other cultural studies. The schools were staffed by a professor and his assistants who gave regular classroom tuition. A teacher was referred to as “father” and he referred to his pupils as “sons.”
The profession of the scribes was highly regarded also in ancient Egypt. Other professions are compared unfavorably with it. Such was the prestige of this profession that a severe discipline and single-minded study could be required of those who intended to enter it. The scribal school was attached to the Temple and was called the “House of Life.” Study was divided into two sections, elementary education and higher education. The elementary education consisted of the learning of writing (NB calligraphy), the study of ancient lit. and the copying of these texts. At the end of the elementary education, students transferred either to the government administration or to the priesthood. If they transferred to the government administration they received a higher education in the duties of office, composition, geography, and natural science. If to the priesthood their study was in theology and medicine."
From a site about biblical training, an overview....
"The purpose of this study limits investigation to the development of education in Israel and the Early Church. But it will be necessary to say a few words about the background out of which Israel’s educational ideals developed. Educational systems had evolved as early as the 3rd millennium b.c. There are a number of school texts dating from about 2,500 b.c. From these documents we learn of numerous schools for scribes in ancient Sumer. In these schools literary works were copied and studied. The study was connected with the training for the needs of the Temple, palace courts and the administration of the empire. Education of this kind was voluntary and costly, and pupils were drawn from the upper class. Subjects studied were botany, zoology, geology, geography, mathematics, languages and other cultural studies. The schools were staffed by a professor and his assistants who gave regular classroom tuition. A teacher was referred to as “father” and he referred to his pupils as “sons.”
The profession of the scribes was highly regarded also in ancient Egypt. Other professions are compared unfavorably with it. Such was the prestige of this profession that a severe discipline and single-minded study could be required of those who intended to enter it. The scribal school was attached to the Temple and was called the “House of Life.” Study was divided into two sections, elementary education and higher education. The elementary education consisted of the learning of writing (NB calligraphy), the study of ancient lit. and the copying of these texts. At the end of the elementary education, students transferred either to the government administration or to the priesthood. If they transferred to the government administration they received a higher education in the duties of office, composition, geography, and natural science. If to the priesthood their study was in theology and medicine."
I would like to see the school texts that are now, 4516 plus, years old?
Or, an Original Manuscript for that matter (having a higher education).
From a site about biblical training, an overview....
"The purpose of this study limits investigation to the development of education in Israel and the Early Church. But it will be necessary to say a few words about the background out of which Israel’s educational ideals developed. Educational systems had evolved as early as the 3rd millennium b.c. There are a number of school texts dating from about 2,500 b.c. From these documents we learn of numerous schools for scribes in ancient Sumer. In these schools literary works were copied and studied. The study was connected with the training for the needs of the Temple, palace courts and the administration of the empire. Education of this kind was voluntary and costly, and pupils were drawn from the upper class. Subjects studied were botany, zoology, geology, geography, mathematics, languages and other cultural studies. The schools were staffed by a professor and his assistants who gave regular classroom tuition. A teacher was referred to as “father” and he referred to his pupils as “sons.”
The profession of the scribes was highly regarded also in ancient Egypt. Other professions are compared unfavorably with it. Such was the prestige of this profession that a severe discipline and single-minded study could be required of those who intended to enter it. The scribal school was attached to the Temple and was called the “House of Life.” Study was divided into two sections, elementary education and higher education. The elementary education consisted of the learning of writing (NB calligraphy), the study of ancient lit. and the copying of these texts. At the end of the elementary education, students transferred either to the government administration or to the priesthood. If they transferred to the government administration they received a higher education in the duties of office, composition, geography, and natural science. If to the priesthood their study was in theology and medicine."
Does any of this mean that scribes did NOT add Mark 16:9-20 or add the story of the woman caught in adultery to John 8, or alter the verses in I John 5:7-8 to reflect political considerations?
What does it mean that the oldest copy of Jeremiah discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls is 1/7 shorter than the one we have in our English Bibles? And that even where that old manuscript and our English Bible are the same the organization of chapters and verses is substantially different? Were the scribes doing the copying between what we have and what we know to be the oldest "accurate?" Or were they interpreting based on new events between the time of the first to the time where we got what we have in English?
If they were so very good at copying why are there so many NT errors--hundreds of thousands between the ancient manuscripts (even though most are minor)?
What it means is that humans have interjected themselves into the Word of God repeatedly--sometimes even intentionally--regardless of how educated they may have been.
The point is--Scripture, while inspired, has the mark of man and should be taken with a grain of salt
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
